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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   32913 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of February 27, 2023

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Recently the US city of New York, decided that BLM protestors that felt victimized by the police preventing from running amok, deserve 21500 USD (28267877.5 KRW) each.

Such a payout somewhat changes the calculus of participating in protests, peaceful or otherwise. Previously by joining a protest one showed willingness to sacrifice time and risk being temporarily detained.

But now the what the Hot Coffee Incident was in common perception notable for, harm suffered being greatly outweighed by compensation, has come true. Thus making protesting a net-gain, unless one views publicly supporting BLM to be so immoral, as there existing no sum high enough for which one would do it.

In related olds, DisruptJ6 protestors, despite alleging molestation going on for a longer period of time, and interfering with bodily autonomy in much more invasive ways, have yet to be given money.

So, when Group A files a lawsuit and reaches a settlement, some other group which has not filed a lawsuit has somehow been treated unjustly? Perhaps you should wait until Group B files a lawsuit and we see what happens, before you get all outraged.

Unjustly? Outraged?

That sure sounds like what the OP was going for, yeah.

I don't see it. I'm not sure how the facts stated in the OP could have been expressed in a more dry and less outraged manner without outright sounding like (the old-school scifi stereotype of) an AI.

From OP:

In related olds, DisruptJ6 protestors, despite alleging molestation going on for a longer period of time, and interfering with bodily autonomy in much more invasive ways, have yet to be given money.

What it says in the article they linked:

The detainees list several issues. The conditions allegedly include no religious services or visitations, "black mold" and "worms" on the jail's walls and in food, abuse by guards, and vaccine requirements for visits and other services. They also say their clothing sent to laundry is returned covered in "brown stains, pubic hair and or reeking of ripe urine." And they say they've lost eyesight and hair because of "malnourishment.

So...prison? You can't expect me to believe that in a forum where people routinely express a desire to murder carjackers and other petty thieves that someone being outraged about moldy food and dirty clothes without pushback is evidence of anything other than blatant tribalism*. Not to mention the use of the word 'molestation' without providing any evidence that they were sexually assaulted in prison - which, for all I know, exists, but they don't link to it and (lest I be accused of not doing my homework again) some basic google searches of 'january 6th protestors prison rape' or 'january 6th protestors sexual assault' only turns up a few cases of the protestors themselves raping children or assaulting women. Or perhaps you'll claim that they used the word 'molested' per the dated 'Alice and Bob arrived at their destination unmolested,' but now the level of mental gymnastics you're expecting from me to imagine that the OP is being fair or charitable exceeds my modest IQ.

From OP:

Recently the US city of New York, decided that BLM protestors that felt victimized by the police preventing from running amok, deserve 21500 USD (28267877.5 KRW) each.

From the article they linked:

They were restrained with tight plastic handcuffs also known as zip ties by officers who were not masked as the pandemic raged. Officers wielding batons swung at protesters and hit them with pepper spray, according to the lawsuit.

You can also follow a link to videos of the protestors being beaten. Why would you frame them as 'feeling' like they were victimized when they were beaten with batons and pepper sprayed?

From OP:

But now the what the Hot Coffee Incident was in common perception notable for, harm suffered being greatly outweighed by compensation, has come true. Thus making protesting a net-gain, unless one views publicly supporting BLM to be so immoral, as there existing no sum high enough for which one would do it.

Between 15 and 30 million people protested that summer. Three hundred are eligible for a payout. Based on the estimates in the NYT article, 180-230 will collect and some other undefined number have already settled. From the evidence provided, OP's argument is that some minute fraction of BLM protestors being paid out makes protesting liberal causes anywhere in the United States a net positive, which is frankly idiotic and ignores all the jail time that BLM protestors did receive:

The AP found that more than 120 defendants across the United States have pleaded guilty or were convicted at trial of federal crimes including rioting, arson and conspiracy. More than 70 defendants who’ve been sentenced so far have gotten an average of about 27 months behind bars. At least 10 received prison terms of five years or more.

Do you think OP's inflammatory claims brought a reasonable amount of evidence?

We could have an actual conversation about events - the ping-ponging hypocrisy of conservatives swinging from prison inmates FAFO'd to moral outrage at the in-group suffer, and liberals salivating over the possibility of January 6th rioters being prison-raped. From conservatives being hostile or apathetic towards women's sports to suddenly being outraged that the purity of women's sports might be compromised by trans athletes, and liberals who went from supporting cis-women's leagues to dogpiling women who dare to suggest that trans athletes might have an unfair biological advantage. We could have, and have had, more nuanced discussions about both the January 6th and BLM riots - although I admit that I was disheartened by them at the time, at least they were better than this.

This is what the community has come to - low effort, inflammatory posts bashing left wing topics du jour with minimal evidence receiving virtually no pushback or rebuttals. And frankly, most posts along these lines aren't even worth engaging with.

*For the record - prison rape and poor prison conditions are bad, and neither the J6 or BLM rioters should be raped, starved or otherwise abused.

A clue! "Thou callst me dog" and all that. When you're "disheartened" by even the nuanced discussions, it doesn't really seem like you want to have those, either.

More nuanced is a relative term, not a full-throated endorsement of the discourse. There's plenty of dogs to go 'round, and failing to clear even that bar is impressive.

If you think so, you know the drill- be the change.

I used to try harder, particularly when I was temporarily stuck in an easy job that was a waste of my time. These days, too many pokers in the fire, too many buns in the oven and a general questioning of whether arguing on the internet (even in a place like this) is the most prosocial thing I could be doing at the moment.

They were restrained with tight plastic handcuffs also known as zip ties by officers who were not masked as the pandemic raged. Officers wielding batons swung at protesters and hit them with pepper spray, according to the lawsuit.

Oh my goodness. They weren’t masked? The humanity! Imagine not using a device that had about zero chance of doing anything especially when outside! Clown world.

Yeah, I chuckled at that line too. It seems a bit late in the game to be clutching pearls about unmasked police officers.

Carjackers are not petty thieves by any standards.

I apologize, I meant it in the colloquial sense. I was unaware there was a strict legal definition.

I can either edit my post or you can take this as an admission of error. @desolation

which is frankly idiotic and ignores all the jail time that BLM protestors did receive:

You know, those numbers for jailed BLM protestors are also really, really, small.

This is what the community has come to

Please spare us the sneering that you found insufficient push back on a top level post you disliked in, checks watch, 4 hours in the middle of the week during American working hours.

Have you considered that

low effort, inflammatory posts bashing left wing topics du jour with minimal evidence receiving virtually no pushback or rebuttals.

and

And frankly, most posts along these lines aren't even worth engaging with.

are related? Consider that rather than us all being frothing culture warriors that many people just didn't have much productive to say about this topic or interest in details and collapsed the post. Criticize what is said for sure, I find value in your posts when you do so, but do you not see the failure mode of chastising this place for not pre-emptively steel manning every possible argument? Should we take your lack of comment on some hot topic as tacit approval of some terrible argument?

Have you considered that and are related?

Yes. I had written a long rebuttal, but maybe we'll let another comment wither on the vine and for today and I'll knock off complaining about the community for another 6 months or so until I lose my temper again.

... yeah. Selective outrage of prison mistreating Jan 6 protestors just sets you up to get owned by "... Yeah, that's what prison is like, coercive authority is inherently oppressive, we on the left support better prison conditions for everyone (e.g. this), while you only support it for your team". “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.", specifically. Sure, that quote is, when examined, a contentless dunk (most reactionaries are conservatives are ok with harsh treatment of white or rich gangsters too), basically just "conservatives are mean therefore they hate minorities" ... but it doesn't help anyone to believe dumb things and it fuel!

Prison is supposed to suck. What we all gain from coercing people to not steal, commit fraud, or undertake any one of the tens of thousands of harmful activities proscribed by law is a thousand time the harm done to those imprisoned, however you account for it. And the harm done by being in prison, being unable to work and play, is a hundred times worse than any extra harm done by moldy food or occasional health problems. So "the food is moldy", "it smells like piss", "medical care is a few decades behind the state of the art" - maybe they should be fixed, but it's just not that bad, whether for j6 protestors or random criminals. Things like this are used to stoke passion by any political team for those 'mistreated in prison' - but even if prisoners were kept in pristine conditions with spotless white walls to stare at, that's still equally terrible for anyone innocent and equally necessary for the guilty.

Prison is supposed to suck.

  1. This isn't a prison. It is a jail, where people, in particular the people in question, are being held pending trial. Such persons, who have not been convicted of anything, should not be subjected to conditions which "suck" more than is inherent in being imprisoned.

  2. Even in prison, people have the right to a minimum level of decent treatment.

Bottom line: If the claims are true, the conditions should be ameliorated and those who have been subjected to them should be compensated.

I’m curious what that standard should be (not as a matter of law but policy)

More comments

But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

Less pithily, if you want to suggest that the OP was framing things in a misleading way, likely in a naked attempt to fit things into a false narrative he prefers, that seems perfectly cromulent and also likely correct, and I didn't need you to help me figure that out. That's still a very very far cry from stoking outrage.

You asked how it could be less edgy. CPAR quoted the actual text, which was less inflammatory, no? Not seeing the problem here.

was less inflammatory, no?

No.

From the post you replied to:

So, when Group A files a lawsuit and reaches a settlement, some other group which has not filed a lawsuit has somehow been treated unjustly? Perhaps you should wait until Group B files a lawsuit and we see what happens, before you get all outraged.

From your first post:

I don't see it. I'm not sure how the facts stated in the OP could have been expressed in a more dry and less outraged manner without outright sounding like (the old-school scifi stereotype of) an AI.

From your most recent post:

That's still a very very far cry from stoking outrage.

So, what's your argument? Is it that Gdanning is unfairly accusing the OP of being outraged/claiming that the J6 protestors are being abused? Is it that OP didn't use inflammatory language in their post? Or is it that OP isn't stoking outrage?

My reply illustrated how the facts could have been expressed in a more neutral and less outraged manner. I pointed out specific words that misrepresented the facts in an inflammatory way, and gross overinterpretation of facts to 'stoke outrage' (see section on argument about protesting being a net-positive activity). I conclude with ways we could have had a more nuanced conversation rather than angry, low-effort posts.

By my lights, you're conflating less neutral with more outrage. You illustrated how it could have been more neutral, less biased, more accurate, all those things. I disagree that this means that somehow it's less stoking outrage than the existing overwhelmingly milquetoast OP.

Yes, I remember the "conversations" on reddit, because they were a lesson in effective gaslighting and manipulation. Month after month of tactical arguments msde in bad faith by accounts that went back to their home subs and gloated about how good they were at propaganda.

Those tricks don't work here, thank god.

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