site banner

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 17, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

11
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Scott: Highlights from the comments on British economic decline.

Britain is suffering a decline in productivity and income which isn’t fully reflected in nominal GDP statistics.

This could be because it’s expressed in a declining pound, rather than in declining nominal wages/profits. I don’t know enough economics to feel like I have good intuitions about declining currency values.

It could also be partly because post-recession economic growth happened more in new employment than in higher wages for the already-employed.

Potential causes are Brexit, a dysfunctional real estate market, and underinvestment in R&D - but low confidence in all of these.

I’m interested particularly as a follow up to my discussion with @FirmWeird. Here we have an economy that struggles, where the citizens recognize it struggles, but the standard indicators look normal. I wanted to see if this would show up in the energy metrics we were discussing, but this data stops too early to say.

I really expect to see its energy per capita tank. Wealth getting swallowed up in housing has to push down energy consumption, at least compared to capital investment. I don’t think the UK has had anything like the shale boom distorting its cost per BTU, either.

So all the graphs and quantitative data show there's no UK economic decline... and the response is that people write articles wondering how the economic decline has managed to hide itself from statistics?

Hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras. Maybe there's just no economic decline? Hell, if we're trying to be rationalists, the decline's absence from the statistics means that DEFINITIONALLY there is no decline.

As many of the commenters on Scott's site speculate: one gets the feeling that "UK Economic Decline" is something that europhilic economists want to be able to talk about (and blame on Brexit), therefore they assume it exists as an article of faith and spend their time conjuring up epicyclic reasons for how those dastardly Tories managed to hide it from every single graph in the world by gaming the metrics.

I don’t think no data is true. From the article I posted here.

https://twitter.com/Birdyword/status/1639536708059533313

I think it’s starting to be real.

https://www.sambowman.co/p/britain-is-a-developing-country

$125k is still an insane salary for someone working at a car wash in the US. Median personal income is just over $40k. Median household income is like $75k. In this case the Reddit thread about it when it was posted suggested this was a big place and the ‘manager’ was actually a relatively senior employee with a large staff.

Bucees are massive gas stations, they can be remote so it might be hard to find staff and they've been opening up a ton of new locations so they need to hire quickly. That said even the cashier is making $17/hr which is incredible to me, I made $6/hr as a cashier in 2005. A married couple working as cashiers at a gas station would have a household income of $68k which is not bad at all with rural Alabama COL.

That said even the cashier is making $17/hr which is incredible to me, I made $6/hr as a cashier in 2005.

I saw something on Twitter recently showing that the highest wage growth in recent years has been to people making under twenty dollars an hour. That matches my anecdotal evidence well enough. I saw a McDonalds offering $17.50 an hour a few days ago. Ten years ago that would have been a literal minimum wage job.

You have to understand the Bucee’s business model to make sense of that sign. Every point on a major interstate highway has thousands of people who pass by every day. Those people all need to stop for food, gas, and restrooms somewhere. The marginal return on reputation in a market like that is huge. The Bucee’s model is to earn and maintain a reputation for elite service, especially when expanding into new areas like Alabama, where people have heard the hype, but may not have personally experienced it before. You will never see an “out of order” sign at Bucee’s. You will never see shit stains on your toilet at Bucee’s. You will always have toilet paper in your stall at Bucee’s.

These signs themselves are part of the aura. They are displayed prominently at the entrance to the store. Everyone entering the store knows that the workers are professionals and that this is a quality establishment. They have to be to deal with this.

That's a very good point. I think their strategy is working because they do have a good reputation and get a lot of buzz which is weird for a gas station. I know people who have driven over an hour just to go to a newly opened Bucees.