naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel
Israel's Energy Minister Israel Katz says the siege of Gaza will not end until Israeli hostages are released.
In a social media post, Israel Katz said no "electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter" until the "abductees" are free.
I think this is a smart move. Even if the hostages being released remains very unlikely, it puts more of the moral burden for the siege on the Gazans, who do (broadly) support Hamas.
A mass scale war crime to block food and water to 2.3 million people. Using war crimes to punish a population is an excellent way to get the world to hate you and the victims to never forget.
Does Israel have an obligation to send water or electricity to Gaza? Let’s start there. Are you saying Israel has an obligation before we move on to any blockade.
You are asking a disingenuous question based on a highly dishonest and propagandized conception of the situation. Thought in short, yes, kind of.
You are speaking as if Gaza and Israel are two sovereign states. Gaza, the state, attacked a bunch of civilians in an act of war against the other state, and Israel provides electricity, water, food out of humanitarian kindness despite all this antagonism. Talk about stupid and evil, huh? Really biting the hand that feeds.
Israel has been economically sieging Gaza well before any of this started. They don't easily allow in concrete, medical supplies, whatever into a one of the most densely populated areas in the world that's about half the size of New York City. They violently refuse to allow Gaza/Palestine right to self determination and occasionally bomb the place in flower wars. Gaza has never been allowed to have their own power generation, water, economy for trade, food, etc. Pragmatically, Israel has had to be involved with Gaza's infrastructure if they are not committing to full public ethnic cleansing/genocide. It's a bit amazing they have functional infrastructure as it is, and anyway this makes it a unique situation since there's not a lot of world places I can think of like this. West Berlin during the Cold War is one of the only things I can think of.
An analogy would be more like a bank robber that took control of food, water, and potty breaks for the hostages. And then the bank robber expects praise for "providing" like he's doing a favor. He's not killing, probably, because the police outside will get angry - not out of altruism. Now the robber is denying food unless the hostages complies with the heist.
Of course, this all ignores what happened prior to this. Including Hamas dismantling systems to attack Israel. Your history starts too late. Gaza has been and continues to be the shittier party in this play.
But of course my statement wasn’t dishonest. I was breaking it down into bite size pieces. I was saying “first start with X.” Was then going to move onto the next.
From what I understand from the news, they don't have an obligation to send food, water, or electricity but they do have an obligation under international law to allow for a humanitarian corridor. Willing to cede the floor to anyone who understands international law better than I do.
The humanitarian corridor is Gaza’s border with Egypt, and it’s not Israel’s fault that Egypt doesn’t want the entirety of Gaza’s supply situation running through their territory.
Yes Israel has an obligation not to commit war crimes on a mountainous scale.
This was in response to the question:
Does Israel have an obligation to send water or electricity to Gaza?
This seems to imply that Israel not sending water or electricity to Gaza is the committing of war crimes on a mountainous scale. Could you clarify what the connection is here? I'm not that familiar with actual war crimes (i.e. in the sense of actual treaties and laws around what nations are allowed to do to each other's combatants and such), so I'm guessing there must be some international treaty that gives Israel that obligation to send water or electricity to Gaza, and I'm wondering what that is.
This is literally insane. You are claiming that if side A attacks side B, that side B is required to continue to provide services to side A. Since that has never been required in the history of war I’ll suggest that it is not customary international law.
Blockading food and water to civilians is a war crime. Also Israel's illegal blockade along with their recent attacks provide Hamas with more than enough justification for fighting back.
Blockading food and water to civilians is a war crime.
"civilians" is important part.
AFAIK only when it can be assured that it will go toward civilians rather than enemy soldiers. Sieging starving enemy who refuses to surrender is AFAIK not a war crime.
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Notes -
No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel
[From the BBC news live tracker]
I think this is a smart move. Even if the hostages being released remains very unlikely, it puts more of the moral burden for the siege on the Gazans, who do (broadly) support Hamas.
A mass scale war crime to block food and water to 2.3 million people. Using war crimes to punish a population is an excellent way to get the world to hate you and the victims to never forget.
Does Israel have an obligation to send water or electricity to Gaza? Let’s start there. Are you saying Israel has an obligation before we move on to any blockade.
You are asking a disingenuous question based on a highly dishonest and propagandized conception of the situation. Thought in short, yes, kind of.
You are speaking as if Gaza and Israel are two sovereign states. Gaza, the state, attacked a bunch of civilians in an act of war against the other state, and Israel provides electricity, water, food out of humanitarian kindness despite all this antagonism. Talk about stupid and evil, huh? Really biting the hand that feeds.
Israel has been economically sieging Gaza well before any of this started. They don't easily allow in concrete, medical supplies, whatever into a one of the most densely populated areas in the world that's about half the size of New York City. They violently refuse to allow Gaza/Palestine right to self determination and occasionally bomb the place in flower wars. Gaza has never been allowed to have their own power generation, water, economy for trade, food, etc. Pragmatically, Israel has had to be involved with Gaza's infrastructure if they are not committing to full public ethnic cleansing/genocide. It's a bit amazing they have functional infrastructure as it is, and anyway this makes it a unique situation since there's not a lot of world places I can think of like this. West Berlin during the Cold War is one of the only things I can think of.
An analogy would be more like a bank robber that took control of food, water, and potty breaks for the hostages. And then the bank robber expects praise for "providing" like he's doing a favor. He's not killing, probably, because the police outside will get angry - not out of altruism. Now the robber is denying food unless the hostages complies with the heist.
Of course, this all ignores what happened prior to this. Including Hamas dismantling systems to attack Israel. Your history starts too late. Gaza has been and continues to be the shittier party in this play.
But of course my statement wasn’t dishonest. I was breaking it down into bite size pieces. I was saying “first start with X.” Was then going to move onto the next.
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From what I understand from the news, they don't have an obligation to send food, water, or electricity but they do have an obligation under international law to allow for a humanitarian corridor. Willing to cede the floor to anyone who understands international law better than I do.
There is a lengthy discussion here, and the same author opining re Gaza specifically here
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The humanitarian corridor is Gaza’s border with Egypt, and it’s not Israel’s fault that Egypt doesn’t want the entirety of Gaza’s supply situation running through their territory.
considering that egypt has had to ask israel to stop airstriking the crossing, it sounds like israel does have some part to play.
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Yes Israel has an obligation not to commit war crimes on a mountainous scale.
This was in response to the question:
This seems to imply that Israel not sending water or electricity to Gaza is the committing of war crimes on a mountainous scale. Could you clarify what the connection is here? I'm not that familiar with actual war crimes (i.e. in the sense of actual treaties and laws around what nations are allowed to do to each other's combatants and such), so I'm guessing there must be some international treaty that gives Israel that obligation to send water or electricity to Gaza, and I'm wondering what that is.
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This is literally insane. You are claiming that if side A attacks side B, that side B is required to continue to provide services to side A. Since that has never been required in the history of war I’ll suggest that it is not customary international law.
Blockading food and water to civilians is a war crime. Also Israel's illegal blockade along with their recent attacks provide Hamas with more than enough justification for fighting back.
https://casebook.icrc.org/case-study/water-and-armed-conflicts
"civilians" is important part.
AFAIK only when it can be assured that it will go toward civilians rather than enemy soldiers. Sieging starving enemy who refuses to surrender is AFAIK not a war crime.
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I said we needed to go step by step. So do you still maintain Israel is obligated to provide resources to Hamas before we get to blockade issue.
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What is illegal about the blockade as it existed since 2007?
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