naraburns nihil supernum
1yr ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #1
This is a megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel
Israel's Energy Minister Israel Katz says the siege of Gaza will not end until Israeli hostages are released.
In a social media post, Israel Katz said no "electrical switch will be turned on, no water hydrant will be opened and no fuel truck will enter" until the "abductees" are free.
I think this is a smart move. Even if the hostages being released remains very unlikely, it puts more of the moral burden for the siege on the Gazans, who do (broadly) support Hamas.
At this point the optics don't matter. I genuinely believe that Israel could detonate some tactical nuclear weapons in Gaza, killing everybody there, including the prisoners, and would suffer almost no negative consequences for it.
Israel, and by extension the Jewish diaspora, has an absolute grasp on western media and government. During the American house speaker recall debate, one of the congresswomen gave a speech explaining that we should keep McCarthy as speaker because he has done the most to bring other congressmen to Israel. Major American policy debates center around support for Israel, a small foreign country.[1]
The Palestinian terror attacks were a type of brutality I don't think anybody in the modern western world has ever seen before. They were uniquely horrific, and I think this will be remembered as a turning point in modern history the same way that 9/11 was.
Israel is out for blood, and nobody in the west with any real power is going to stop them.
And by the way: good for them. I, a Catholic American, am jealous (although jealous is the wrong word since that sortof implies an animosity, which I have none of) of the power that the Jewish people have. Much of my criticism of The Church centers around not behaving more like The Jews. Why no Catholic equivalent to "Birthright Israel"? Why not make Catholics learn latin anymore? These are good things that people should do.
(Although I don't think they should be nuking Palestine.)
And by the way: good for them. I, a Catholic American, am jealous (although jealous is the wrong word since that sortof implies an animosity, which I have none of) of the power that the Jewish people have.
For this, you would need to invent some "secular Catholic" identity and community, where someone who never went to Church, who does not obey and does not care about any of Catholic religious laws, someone who does not know transubstantiation from transmission, someone whose only connection to Catholicism is that some of his ancestors were sprinkled with water by priest hundreds years ago, would still identify as proud Catholic.
No. This is borderline not being Catholic yourself especially how others are expressing it in the comments.
Catholicism is NOT an ethnicity. It’s not nationalism. It should never be an ethnicity or a nation. It’s about following Christ of which includes following the Church as the representative of Christ on earth.
I want nothing to do with people who want a culture Catholic ethnicity.
As brutal as the Spanish were there is a reason why Mayans and Aztecs today are mostly all Catholic. They were still viewed as brothers capable of embracing Christ.
Christ himself was pretty clearly against this notion. Matt 10:34-39
[34] Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
[35] For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
[36] And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
[37] He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
[38] And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
[39] He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
In all of that you never once mention Christ. It makes me feel like an Evangelical. You mention beliefs like being anti-abortion. The reason we believe those things is because the Church at its core is to foster a personal relationship with Christ.
Michael Corleone was Catholic but I don’t think he was Christian. People can do all the things you say but I don’t think that’s what the religion is about.
Man I feel like you are going pretty far out of your way to misinterpret what I’m saying. Am I just missing the point you’re trying to make? This is starting to border on the sort of “Catholics aren’t really Christians since they follow the church and not Christ!” arguments that mega church pastors make before asking for money and telling you about the Ferris wheel.
Anyway I think I’ve made my point. I think people should be Catholic. No I don’t think there is any reasonable interpretation of what I’ve said and clarified that leads to Michael Corleone embodying anything I’m supporting. I also don’t think we are going to sit here and re-derive the entirely of Catholic theology and philosophy in some text posts back and forth.
If you want to be Christ-like and follow Christs teachings (which I think you should do) then being Catholic is good. Anything you’re trying to torture out of what I’ve said beyond that is a misinterpretation by you and I think I’ve done enough clarification at this point.
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Notes -
No electricity, water, or fuel for Gaza until hostages freed - Israel
[From the BBC news live tracker]
I think this is a smart move. Even if the hostages being released remains very unlikely, it puts more of the moral burden for the siege on the Gazans, who do (broadly) support Hamas.
At this point the optics don't matter. I genuinely believe that Israel could detonate some tactical nuclear weapons in Gaza, killing everybody there, including the prisoners, and would suffer almost no negative consequences for it.
Israel, and by extension the Jewish diaspora, has an absolute grasp on western media and government. During the American house speaker recall debate, one of the congresswomen gave a speech explaining that we should keep McCarthy as speaker because he has done the most to bring other congressmen to Israel. Major American policy debates center around support for Israel, a small foreign country.[1]
The Palestinian terror attacks were a type of brutality I don't think anybody in the modern western world has ever seen before. They were uniquely horrific, and I think this will be remembered as a turning point in modern history the same way that 9/11 was.
Israel is out for blood, and nobody in the west with any real power is going to stop them.
And by the way: good for them. I, a Catholic American, am jealous (although jealous is the wrong word since that sortof implies an animosity, which I have none of) of the power that the Jewish people have. Much of my criticism of The Church centers around not behaving more like The Jews. Why no Catholic equivalent to "Birthright Israel"? Why not make Catholics learn latin anymore? These are good things that people should do.
(Although I don't think they should be nuking Palestine.)
For this, you would need to invent some "secular Catholic" identity and community, where someone who never went to Church, who does not obey and does not care about any of Catholic religious laws, someone who does not know transubstantiation from transmission, someone whose only connection to Catholicism is that some of his ancestors were sprinkled with water by priest hundreds years ago, would still identify as proud Catholic.
Yes exactly. I think that would be a good thing because it would be easier for lapsed adult Catholics to return to The Church.
No. This is borderline not being Catholic yourself especially how others are expressing it in the comments.
Catholicism is NOT an ethnicity. It’s not nationalism. It should never be an ethnicity or a nation. It’s about following Christ of which includes following the Church as the representative of Christ on earth.
I want nothing to do with people who want a culture Catholic ethnicity.
As brutal as the Spanish were there is a reason why Mayans and Aztecs today are mostly all Catholic. They were still viewed as brothers capable of embracing Christ.
Christ himself was pretty clearly against this notion. Matt 10:34-39
Emphasis mine.
EDIT: sorry meant to reply to @firmamenti
See my reply here: https://www.themotte.org/post/705/israelgaza-megathread-1/148332?context=8#context
In all of that you never once mention Christ. It makes me feel like an Evangelical. You mention beliefs like being anti-abortion. The reason we believe those things is because the Church at its core is to foster a personal relationship with Christ.
Michael Corleone was Catholic but I don’t think he was Christian. People can do all the things you say but I don’t think that’s what the religion is about.
Man I feel like you are going pretty far out of your way to misinterpret what I’m saying. Am I just missing the point you’re trying to make? This is starting to border on the sort of “Catholics aren’t really Christians since they follow the church and not Christ!” arguments that mega church pastors make before asking for money and telling you about the Ferris wheel.
Anyway I think I’ve made my point. I think people should be Catholic. No I don’t think there is any reasonable interpretation of what I’ve said and clarified that leads to Michael Corleone embodying anything I’m supporting. I also don’t think we are going to sit here and re-derive the entirely of Catholic theology and philosophy in some text posts back and forth.
If you want to be Christ-like and follow Christs teachings (which I think you should do) then being Catholic is good. Anything you’re trying to torture out of what I’ve said beyond that is a misinterpretation by you and I think I’ve done enough clarification at this point.
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