naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
That the IDF released audio of Hamas operatives saying it was from Islamic Jihad, but the audio is clearly faked with bad Palestinian accents and crappy acting. Why do you think the IDF would release obviously doctored audio? Stupidity thinking that no one would call them on it? Rationally making the calculation their supporters would eat it up and it won't make their detractors any angrier than they are? That maybe it isn't actually faked and some Hamas operatives actually do just talk like that? But even to me, I don't speak a lick of Arabic, the tone of voices does sound like script reading and it felt very convenient how they described so much incriminating and explanatory information in a minute of conversation, like exposition from the beginning of a bad movie. Thoughts?
TBH, what is the difference? If Israel blew up a hospital, it probably contained Hamas operatives and weapons (there are none in Gaza known to lack such things, ditto schools, retirement homes, and all other potentially sympathetic targets). Lets say IDF missile launch operator #112 misread an intelligence report that said a mass barrage was about to be launched from the roof of Mecca Hospital in Gaza, and instead leveled Medina Hospital. What would change? there would still be operatives and a weapons cache there in most cases. In the incredibly unlikely scenario that there was not, fog of war is fog of war. Is Israel not allowed to make a mistake when targeting rocket launch sites? Police forces in the 1st world are certainly not held to such a standard in active shooter or hostage scenarios (both of which are easy to deal with compared to the current situation in Gaza). If a hostage in a bank heist is wearing a Nixon mask and charges a police officer the PO is not put on trial for shooting said Nixon masker.
All that said, its probably not Israel, because they know they are held to a standard that is higher than almost any other country in history. Most would have ethnically cleansed the West Bank and genocided Gaza by now. Israel might be the only country in history to show such restraint.
The difference would be if Israel launched a surprise attack on a hospital that killed 500 innocents without giving them warning to evacuate. That did not actually happen apparently, but if it did it would be bad.
That’s why you warn the civilians to evacuate first. Yes, that also allows terrorists to flee too, but being civilized sometimes means choosing policies that aren’t maximally effective so innocents don’t die.
To be nitpicky Israel is being treated with kids gloves in this situation compared to the treatment of western police forces during encounters. We had George Floyd a dude all up on fentanyl launched nationwide race riots.
Then you had this incident recently. Notice how the article headline includes nothing about him trying to kill the cop first.
And of the SPLC was running with it. I’m going to assume the ADL would be commenting if they didn’t have real things to deal with.
We have plenty of guy tries to kill cop but ends up dead events followed by protest in the last few years. The Jews managed to get any Ivy leaguer supporting Hamas unhirable for a few years.
George Floyd was a race riot, and was not in response to excessive force used during an active shooter drill. But you do have a point that the same people who were up in arms about Floyd also will hold Israel to an impossible to meet standard, because the childish POV overlaps on the two issues.
And this is relevant how, exactly? Either excessive force was used, or it wasn't.
????
It's relevant because it shows excessive force was not being used, and that the policeman was forced to kill him in self defense.
Police don't get a free pass because a suspect, especially a hancuffee suspect, is an extra bad guy, and it not even as if Chauvin was acting in the heat of passion, given how the death occurred.
What are you even talking about, and what does Chauvin have to do with this case?
Sorry I thought he was talking about George Floyd. I'll delete the comment. Though on a side note, the SPLC has been a joke, if not a scam, going on 30 years. Their views cant be used as representative of anything, let alone what the ADL supposedly would say.
I was talking about George Floyd. Its certain that Fentanyl heavily contributed to his death. A person without the health issue of being high on fentanyl almost certainly would have survived that arrest. Yet the cop was treated as if he had to be a Superman who could make a legitimate arrest of someone who physically could handle very little additional force. Also it may have just been a straight up OD. Yet the cop got no mercy from our media or justice system.
It’s not that Floyd was a bad guy. It’s that he committed a serious crime, resisted arrest, and was close to death before the arrest occurred. It created a very difficult situation for the cop.
Though I don't know if SPLC can be considered a joke when it comes to the influence they wield. Aren't they on various "trust and safety" councils of social media? Or am I conflating them with ADL and other orgs?
The right comparison surely is not police action in Western countries, but Russia/Ukraine. Depending on whether you ultimately believe that the hospital was hit by the Palestinians themselves, this story either has the shape of the Konstantinovka market missile (where the NYT timed their "actually it was the Ukrainians" article to coincide with Zelenskiy's US visit for reasons I'd still like to understand better) or any number of prior cases with hospitals/train stations/hotels being hit (to Ukrainian claims of "atrocity" and Russian claims of "military were stationed there").
I doubt anything actually resembling war like Ukraine_Russia is comparable to Hamas-Israel. In the Hamas conflict, Hamas wants its own people to die, because that is literally their most effective weapon in their toolbox.
There is a sense in which it is effective for Hamas but not Ukraine (the former has no state capacity or military mobilisation and therefore relies on inflaming more Palestinians to join their cause/participate in the fighting, while the latter can easily put anyone who would ever be willing to fight under arms and has little to gain from additional internal anti-Russian sentiment on the margin), but I contend that the more significant dimension in either conflict is Western support, and any reporting (certainly any reporting that we see) from them is primarily aimed at the Western audience. The Western world has the military-economic power to snuff out either of the belligerents in either conflict at the cost of perhaps cutting down on dessert and gratuitous taxi rides for a few months; the only obstacle to overcome to get it to do that is to talk its people into a state of sufficient moral outrage on your behalf that they would actually be willing to bear those sacrifices.
Somewhat, yes. The West can beat Russia, but it can't be certain that wouldn't have high costs. It could also just let Russia win.
Hamas can't win unless the West turns on Israel fully. Which is why Gazan's dying is literally all they have. It won't work on someone like me who sees the strategy as fully transparent.
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Notes -
In regards to the recent hospital explosion, it's looking increasingly likely that Israel did not cause the explosion.
https://manifold.markets/MilfordHammerschmidt/did-the-idf-just-now-blow-up-a-hosp
I saw this however on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/alextomo/status/1714670858914894046?t=UcPxGEUM5ShnUpc8Hav3Vw&s=19
https://twitter.com/IDF/status/1714548529538953637?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1714548529538953637%7Ctwgr%5E4bbaa419eb9133e336435eb810800500af090537%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hindustantimes.com%2Fworld-news%2Fidf-shares-audio-of-hamas-allegedly-talking-about-rocket-that-hit-gaza-hospital-it-misfired-101697630817752.html
That the IDF released audio of Hamas operatives saying it was from Islamic Jihad, but the audio is clearly faked with bad Palestinian accents and crappy acting. Why do you think the IDF would release obviously doctored audio? Stupidity thinking that no one would call them on it? Rationally making the calculation their supporters would eat it up and it won't make their detractors any angrier than they are? That maybe it isn't actually faked and some Hamas operatives actually do just talk like that? But even to me, I don't speak a lick of Arabic, the tone of voices does sound like script reading and it felt very convenient how they described so much incriminating and explanatory information in a minute of conversation, like exposition from the beginning of a bad movie. Thoughts?
TBH, what is the difference? If Israel blew up a hospital, it probably contained Hamas operatives and weapons (there are none in Gaza known to lack such things, ditto schools, retirement homes, and all other potentially sympathetic targets). Lets say IDF missile launch operator #112 misread an intelligence report that said a mass barrage was about to be launched from the roof of Mecca Hospital in Gaza, and instead leveled Medina Hospital. What would change? there would still be operatives and a weapons cache there in most cases. In the incredibly unlikely scenario that there was not, fog of war is fog of war. Is Israel not allowed to make a mistake when targeting rocket launch sites? Police forces in the 1st world are certainly not held to such a standard in active shooter or hostage scenarios (both of which are easy to deal with compared to the current situation in Gaza). If a hostage in a bank heist is wearing a Nixon mask and charges a police officer the PO is not put on trial for shooting said Nixon masker.
All that said, its probably not Israel, because they know they are held to a standard that is higher than almost any other country in history. Most would have ethnically cleansed the West Bank and genocided Gaza by now. Israel might be the only country in history to show such restraint.
The difference would be if Israel launched a surprise attack on a hospital that killed 500 innocents without giving them warning to evacuate. That did not actually happen apparently, but if it did it would be bad.
If the hospital was also the site of a military installment (they all are), why would that be bad?
Because an unnecessary number of civilians would be killed.
Why is it unnecessary to dismantle rocket installations pointed at your population?
That’s why you warn the civilians to evacuate first. Yes, that also allows terrorists to flee too, but being civilized sometimes means choosing policies that aren’t maximally effective so innocents don’t die.
That isn't being civilized, its just being self loathing. That international pressure forces some countries to do such a thing is saddening.
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If the hospital is the site of a military installment, the number is not unnecessary, just excessive.
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To be nitpicky Israel is being treated with kids gloves in this situation compared to the treatment of western police forces during encounters. We had George Floyd a dude all up on fentanyl launched nationwide race riots.
Then you had this incident recently. Notice how the article headline includes nothing about him trying to kill the cop first.
And of the SPLC was running with it. I’m going to assume the ADL would be commenting if they didn’t have real things to deal with.
https://twitter.com/splcenter/status/1714646960005632186?s=46&t=aQ6ajj220jubjU7-o3SuWQ
We have plenty of guy tries to kill cop but ends up dead events followed by protest in the last few years. The Jews managed to get any Ivy leaguer supporting Hamas unhirable for a few years.
George Floyd was a race riot, and was not in response to excessive force used during an active shooter drill. But you do have a point that the same people who were up in arms about Floyd also will hold Israel to an impossible to meet standard, because the childish POV overlaps on the two issues.
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????
It's relevant because it shows excessive force was not being used, and that the policeman was forced to kill him in self defense.
What are you even talking about, and what does Chauvin have to do with this case?
Sorry I thought he was talking about George Floyd. I'll delete the comment. Though on a side note, the SPLC has been a joke, if not a scam, going on 30 years. Their views cant be used as representative of anything, let alone what the ADL supposedly would say.
I was talking about George Floyd. Its certain that Fentanyl heavily contributed to his death. A person without the health issue of being high on fentanyl almost certainly would have survived that arrest. Yet the cop was treated as if he had to be a Superman who could make a legitimate arrest of someone who physically could handle very little additional force. Also it may have just been a straight up OD. Yet the cop got no mercy from our media or justice system.
It’s not that Floyd was a bad guy. It’s that he committed a serious crime, resisted arrest, and was close to death before the arrest occurred. It created a very difficult situation for the cop.
He responded to the part were you were talking about Cure.
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Fair.
Though I don't know if SPLC can be considered a joke when it comes to the influence they wield. Aren't they on various "trust and safety" councils of social media? Or am I conflating them with ADL and other orgs?
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The right comparison surely is not police action in Western countries, but Russia/Ukraine. Depending on whether you ultimately believe that the hospital was hit by the Palestinians themselves, this story either has the shape of the Konstantinovka market missile (where the NYT timed their "actually it was the Ukrainians" article to coincide with Zelenskiy's US visit for reasons I'd still like to understand better) or any number of prior cases with hospitals/train stations/hotels being hit (to Ukrainian claims of "atrocity" and Russian claims of "military were stationed there").
I doubt anything actually resembling war like Ukraine_Russia is comparable to Hamas-Israel. In the Hamas conflict, Hamas wants its own people to die, because that is literally their most effective weapon in their toolbox.
There is a sense in which it is effective for Hamas but not Ukraine (the former has no state capacity or military mobilisation and therefore relies on inflaming more Palestinians to join their cause/participate in the fighting, while the latter can easily put anyone who would ever be willing to fight under arms and has little to gain from additional internal anti-Russian sentiment on the margin), but I contend that the more significant dimension in either conflict is Western support, and any reporting (certainly any reporting that we see) from them is primarily aimed at the Western audience. The Western world has the military-economic power to snuff out either of the belligerents in either conflict at the cost of perhaps cutting down on dessert and gratuitous taxi rides for a few months; the only obstacle to overcome to get it to do that is to talk its people into a state of sufficient moral outrage on your behalf that they would actually be willing to bear those sacrifices.
Somewhat, yes. The West can beat Russia, but it can't be certain that wouldn't have high costs. It could also just let Russia win.
Hamas can't win unless the West turns on Israel fully. Which is why Gazan's dying is literally all they have. It won't work on someone like me who sees the strategy as fully transparent.
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