site banner
PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   27135 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of November 6, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

5
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

In last week’s thread there was extensive discussion on the retirement home employee shortage in the US. It made me ask myself: is it fair to say that elderly care in the US and Western countries in general is based on the unstated rule that you as a frail and elderly person pretty much only deserve to have a quality of life worth a damn if you have loving, caring children and grandchildren living nearby, visiting you regularly and looking after you if needed? That is, whatever system of care that is set up is not designed and should not be designed to basically prop you up and coddle you otherwise? It may sound cynical or too far-fetched to say it out loud, but looking at this issue from the outside, it’d explain many things. I imagine this is a general rule most Boomers also take as given, as they grew up in an age when childlessness and family dissolution/dislocation was much less normal than today.

rule that you as a frail and elderly person pretty much only deserve to have a quality of life worth a damn

Outside of individuals who should be sentenced to life in prison, is there anyone not entitled to an upper-middle-class life, regardless of their life choices?

You need to define what "worth a damn" means. I haven't compiled what I usually see from leftists regarding what the elderly are entitled to, but once listed out, I'm guessing it's an upper-middle-class standard if you want to live in flyover country or a wealthy one if you want to live in an Alpha++ city.

For younger people, I see:

  • Unlimited world-class healthcare.
  • At least 40 hours of childcare per week.
  • No more than two children per bedroom, and older children should not have to share a room for as many children as you can have.
  • A safe, walkable neighborhood within biking distance of the downtown core.
  • A workweek of less than 40 hours, although I observe that this number is constantly decreasing. Let's be honest, jobs are optional because means testing is not allowed.
  • If you do want a job, then more than 6 weeks of paid vacation.
  • At least 3 months of paid parental leave (I've seen people advocating for a year).
  • If you do need a vehicle, it should not be a beater.
  • High-speed internet.
  • A smartphone.
  • Free college (should any education be paid for out of pocket?)

Considering that jobs are optional, it seems that everyone is entitled to the life of a trust fund kid.

You need to define what "worth a damn" means.

Not having to lie in bed for hours waiting for the Filipino nurse to come and wash you after soiling yourself. Not lying on the cold floor at an isolated part of the retirement home after accidentally tripping and falling, because nobody comes to help. Not going hungry all the time when you're so frail lying in bed that you cannot sit up and eat, because nobody helps out by feeding you. Not living in complete solitude and social isolation. I'm referring to this sort of stuff, just off the top of my head.

I'm inspired by Who By Very Slow Decay: I honestly think that modern societies are going to go the MAiD/Athenian route, more or less. As I understand it, any Athenian citizen could request a lethal dose of hemlock poison; permission had to be granted by the Athenian Assembly. It could be that elderly people with no children or grandchildren sometimes ask for their hemlock from the government.

Why were things different in the past?

  1. Closer families and more family support.

  2. Modern medicine. The frail elderly who would've been killed by pneumonia or a heart attack or stroke 100 or 200 years ago now are able to survive and as such more time and effort is spent taking care of them.

Life in a social democracy with more robust social services, in other words. Sounds great to me.

The problem is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

That's not really in evidence. The Nordic social democracies that are held up as exemplars may not be entirely what some of their external fans believe they are (in particular, they still have poor people, you still have to go to work, and they have high taxes on everyone, not just the rich), but they're not in danger of running out of money.

Do the Nordic social democracies provide to everyone:

  • Unlimited world class healthcare
  • 40 hours of (free) childcare a week
  • No more than two children per bedroom, and older children should not have to share a room for as many children as you can have

As far as I can tell the answer is "no" to all three. I assume the answer is the same for the rest of the list.

Yes, yes, and within reason.

This is very easily googleable or verifiable by either going there or asking anyone from those places.

That last one is iffy though; I was told (in Oslo, at least) that if you want a big house for any amount of money you are gonna have to be willing to move outside the metro area.

Unlimited healthcare? Any procedure you want, the government will cover 100%?

40 hours of free childcare a week does not appear to exist, but maybe I missed it.

Last one is just totally false as far as I can tell. If you make enough money, sure.

I don’t know about the others, but unlimited world class healthcare is not unlimited healthcare to the maximal extent possible.

More comments

I'm middle-income in Finland, and we currently have two kids who both have their own bedroom and get 30 hours of free childcare for the older one per week. (Could be more but my wife doesn't want it, and wants to keep the younger one completely at home for a bit longer.) I'm not sure what "unlimited" means regarding health care in this context.

Do unemployed people also have 3+ bedroom apartments within biking distance of downtown?

There is a world of difference between your strawman and real existing social democracy societies to which many younger people in the us aspire to. And you can easily have tens of thousands affordable 3+ bedroom apartments near the downtown. You just need to accept the glory of the commie block! Or at least, it's variation more palatable to the western tastes.

More comments

This is caused by the transition from the left being the party of workers against bosses, to being the party of students against workers.

The western college experience is that you move out of your parents house to a 1-star resort where your immediate needs have no short term sticker price, and you can get a stipend to live off of. This is treated as an entitlement by the people doing it and it’s perfectly reasonable on an individual/class level to advocate for the thing to which you’re already entitled to become higher quality/bigger. And it’s also perfectly reasonable to lobby for the entitlement to not end.

I don’t know what the solution is, but it’s obviously wrong.

Workers in my experience both as a union member and rep are quite fond of not having to pay for healthcare, having more vacation, childcare availability, time to spend with their kids, adequate pay for better housing and lifestyle, shorter hours, and getting free education. They fight quite hard to try and get such benefits in their contracts. Go back to before the majority of the populace went to college and you'll still find social democratic, labor and socialist parties with such demands in their party platforms.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats