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Americans really don’t appreciate how good we have it in terms of our pool of immigrants. Immigrants in America are awesome. Low crime, hard workers, values that mesh well with the native population. Even our “bad” immigrants commit crimes at the same rate as native whites and are much better behaved after adjusting for income.
https://siepr.stanford.edu/news/mythical-tie-between-immigration-and-crime
Some thoughts:
There are probably many factors specific to the US (and probably Canada too) that make this true, but the big ones are probably (a) geography and (b) extremely positive selection caused by various policies and reputation.
It’s hard to understand how badly informed most Americans are about our immigrants. Besides the data linked above my anecdotal interactions with blue collar Hispanic immigrants is unbelievably positive. My experience with white collar immigrants is that they’re just like me but with an accent. The most anti immigrant people seem to have had no interactions with immigrants as far as I can tell.
Besides the obvious “they’re taking our jobs” economic fallacy (immigration creates more demand for labor too), the whole “elites don’t mind immigration because immigrants don’t compete with them economically” is prima facie absurd. Have you seen the composition of google’s workforce? Other elite institutions?
US immigration is freaking awesome but Europeans should be careful about generalizing because everything in Europe seems set up to attract a much much worse pool of immigrants, from an ultra generous welfare state (real or imagined) to geographical proximity to regions with lot of emigrating bad hombres.
I am anti-immigrant and have had ample interactions with them. They are not just like you and me. If they were, why do they insist on speaking their native language in public? Why do I have to press 1 for English? Why do they wear their old culture's clothing? Why do they congregate in communities with their own instead of assimilating?
I can't imagine immigrating to another country and refusing to speak their language and wear their clothing. I'd be overcome with embarrassment and shame at such a flagrant display of disrespect and hostility to the country that was gracious enough to accept me in.
There are certainly many immigrants that assimilate, but it doesn't take many defectors to change the character of a community.
If white Americans wore their own culture's clothing, rather than dressing like stoner slobs, then America would be a better place. The same is also true, but less so, in western Europe. At least the immigrants are making an effort to dress well.
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I could not care less about what languages somebody else chooses to speak, their sense of fashion, and the geographic origin of who they like hanging out with. That's their personal business. Why be so offended and take it as a personal insult when others are not a mirror of your manner of speaking, fashion sense, and social life? Why is it an act of hostility? Attempting to force somebody else to speak, dress, etc the same as you sounds like much more of hostile action than just coexistence with you doing you and them doing them.
Because they're coming to a new country and signaling that they don't intend to integrate. They intend to change the culture to conform to their way of doing things. How do you not see that as profoundly disrespectful and hostile? It'd be like if I invited you into my home and you recognized that I do things certain ways - no shoes indoors, toilet seats stay lowered, lights stay off when not in use - and you disregard it and do what the fuck you want. Except, unlike in the analogy, I can't kick you out once you got here.
No wonder you're confused about why some people are anti-immigrant.
If America had a high-standards culture like Japan I would see it as utterly degenerate for immigrants to do anything but try to uphold it, but we're talking about the West, here, which has always held to barbaric if practical customs.
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"Integration" is inherently give-and-take. Unlike your example with the house, you don't own your culture alone, it is shared, and so the extent to which it demands conformism is shared too.
It is kind of ironic that you referred negatively to communism, yet are coming off as if you would ideally want every newborn and new arrival to sync into lockstep with one snapshot of native culture, forever. If I'm incorrect, please explain: how does your model of respect towards native culture allow for any sort of change and evolution? Is it that one "earns" the right to deviate by becoming/being fully native? Would it be fine to start dressing and talking differently after being born there?
And I advocate for other people who share my culture to agree to keep it from changing in a negative way, and that includes preventing too much immigration.
Yes. Just like I don't think people who are members of totalitarian ideologies should be allowed to immigrate to the US (and indeed they aren't, I don't think Americans who are members of totalitarian ideologies should be punished for it.
Residents of a country have more rights and freedoms in that country than people who aren't residents of that country.
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People who are pro-immigration keep using this bizarre line of argument that essentially amounts to "You think this bad thing is happening now, but it happened in the past, too!" ...As if we must think it was a good thing when it happened in the past? No, it was bad then and it's bad now. Do you get it yet?
The argument is that all "natives" were immigrants once. At the very least anti-immigrationists should then clarify that they want the specific current shade of "native".
But that statement does not entail either 1) that it was a good thing that the ancestors of current natives once immigrated; or 2) that further immigration is desirable.
No, but it does challenge the moral authority somewhat. I'm an immigrant to the US, so if I am unhappy at immigration (generally) then I am at least somewhat hypocritical. If I had the courage of my convictions I would go back to the UK.
Someone who thinks their ancestors moving to the US was wrong, but does not at least attempt to move back to their ancestral nation is similarly displaying some (lesser!) level of hypocrisy. Exactly the same way that communists are often challenged about engaging in capitalism while living in a capitalist culture. Or that Christians who think abortion is murder are challenged that they should really be overthrowing the government to prevent a new (in their eyes) Holocaust every year.
Now hypocrisy is not the be all and end all of course, most people do not sacrifice everything for their principles, because doing so has great costs. But rhetorically and morally it is an appropriate attack vector. Which is why it used all the time.
If you really had the courage of your convictions (and to clarify most people do not, including myself!) you would move (presumably) to Europe. The fact you do not, is evidence of a sort that you accept that principle can be traded off against other things. And if it can be traded off for you then it can be traded off for other people, including those currently immigrating that you wish would not.
In other words it is an argument that demonstrates your principle is not an absolute, but rather negotiable. And then (as per the old saw) you're just haggling over price. Which moves you into a kind of utilitarian trade off of cost vs benefit conversation. And most of those costs and benefits will be subjective. It's no longer about whether it is right or wrong, but how much, who and when. And your position is lost.
Furthermore for people who think the US is in pretty good shape now, the rebuttal can now simply be: "Yeah and it worked out pretty well then, so why do you think today will be different?" Now you have to defend a position which even most Conservatives today will reject, that Irish and Italian and German immigration made the country worse, when many of the people nominally on your side will be descended from said Irish, Italians and Germans. And it plays into Progressive talking points "You are absolutely correct, we SHOULD give the native peoples more say, because the colonization WAS wrong. Let's set up a First Nations Voice, pay reparations etc. etc."
That's the dichotomy and why many Conservative Americans aren't anti-immigration (even if they are anti-illegal immigration), because that would invalidate their own history of ancestors at Ellis Island or Plymouth Rock and so on and why the "nation of immigrants" rhetoric still has strong purchase on the right. The emotional valence (for someone proud of their country and history) of saying, "Yes my ancestors were morally wrong for moving to the US and seeking a better life" is a heavy one for most people. And feelings trump facts in my experience.
That plus the dichotomy of "Land of the Free" vs Slavery and Jim Crow et al, are two of the most powerful historical forces that shape both the left and the right in America in my view.
This is a common argument, but I think it's only hypocritical if you're assuming a standpoint of moral universalism. If someone cares about themselves and not other people then a 'immigration for me but not for ye' argument has no hypocrisy. They simply want to get the best that they can for themselves and regard further immigration to be a detriment.
Right, self interest is an argument, but that wasn't the one being made. And while common, many people are suspicious of arguments made for selfish reasons. It's also not an argument that lends itself to much debate. If I think it is good that I can immigrate, but not other people, then other people are also free to make the same argument for their own immigration.
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Whether Irish, German and Italian immigration made America “worse” is a matter of opinion (and I think the same can fairly be said of modern mass immigration, at least some of the time).
But it did, undoubtedly, make it different. The America that exists today where the white population is 25% Anglo (or whatever it is) and the hypothetical America where the white population is 80%+ Anglo (as it still is in Australia) are two very different places. You can feel the difference if you go to those few parts of America (eg. Utah, non-French or Irish parts of coastal New England) that are still substantially of UK descent. Again, modern America and modern Australia are similarly wealthy countries with a similar quality of life, it’s relatively unlikely the US would be some paradise without the Italians and Irish and Germans and so on.
But entire cities like Boston were wholly colonized by other peoples, from top to bottom. The culture that inhabited them before large scale Irish migration is dead and gone. Conservatives did mourn the passing of Anglo-America. Many did so loudly and publicly, many were anguished. Did they fail to stop it? Sure. Does that mean they were wrong to try?
Personally, as a descendant (at least in large part on one side of my family) of 19th century migrants to the US from Eastern and Central Europe, I’m obviously grateful that I exist. But I’m also sad that Anglo-America as it was is a vanished country, one that in all my travels I shall never visit.
Sure, but if you want to use that to argue against current immigration, you still need to suggest that difference was worse. And for people who are here because of that change that is a hard sell.
The Anglo-America of the 19th century or whatever would not have existed for you to visit today even absent immigration. It would be different due to a century of change. Would that be better or worse than the actual situation? Who knows. But it would have been different than its prior self regardless. So absent time-travel your sadness is misplaced. That Anglo-America you envisage would have been dead and gone in 2023 even minus the Irish, Italians, Jews, Germans. China's racial demographics haven't changed much but it is very different in 2023 than it was in 1923.
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I'm an immigrant to the US as well. I understand the argument, but I don't think it's compelling. If I think the tax rate on my bracket should be higher, am I a hypocrite for not donating to the IRS? I don't think people are necessarily hypocrites for availing themselves of legal avenues to better their lives, even if they recognize that it would be better if policy were to change to preclude that option. This is one reason why I don't mistreat immigrants, even though I resent their presence and wish more than anything else that they weren't allowed in: they were following the law.
There's also the self-serving argument that I think my presence in the US actually decreases the amount of cultural change the US is going through as a result of immigration, just given how thoroughly Americanized I am compared to the median American (which is weighed down by the 14% who are foreign-born, and mostly not from Canada like me or the UK like you). But of course I'd say that, and of course you shouldn't believe me. It also doesn't matter.
The point is that a polity has the right to decide who can immigrate, and the failure of the founding stock to limit immigration to X,Y,Z groups does not compel the present polity to permit further immigration. And the fact that some people may be hypocrites or some people are unwilling to bite the bullet and say that their own Irish/Italian/German ancestors should have been forbidden to immigrate does not mean arguments against immigration - even voiced by those descendants of past immigration - are uncompelling.
The presence of an unrepentant thief who says, "thievery should be punished" is not a good argument against his proposition.
It does mean those arguments are uncompelling to THEM, however. Because it means having to condemn their own ancestors, which lots of people are unwilling to do. And those who are usually think that some form of reparations should be made. That's kind of my point, most of the people who acknowledge what their ancestors did was wrong, end up on the progressive side. It's why we see alt-right types here rail against Conservatives for not wanting to stop all immigration, only illegal immigration. Most Americans have a vested interest in regarding (legal) immigration as being a moral good. Because for many of them it's the only reason they are where they are. Sure that isn't a logical argument, but feelings trump facts here.
If you want the current polity to actually limit immigration, that's what you have to contend with. From my perspective if the US decides to limit or not limit immigration, that is largely up to them. If they want to go with the nation of immigrants myth that they are emotionally invested in, that is entirely their right to do so, whether I agree or not.
The presence of an unrepentant thief who says, "thievery should be punished, but not me, I'm one of the good ones" does indeed call into question his motivation to make that argument. Largely it's what the non thieves think that should hold most sway. The thief by his very nature is unable to be objective about it.
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I do not believe this makes sense. If being Americanized does not refer to being most like the median American, then what is it exactly?
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Illegal immigration costs the US taxpayer $150 billion a year in govt expenditure out/revenue in terms but said report feels free to sideline incarcerations for immigration-related offenses as though that's not 'real' crime...
Besides, 'they're taking our jobs' is undeniable fact, for certain groups of 'our'. Illegal immigrants are a subset of immigrants. Illegal immigrants can get paid cash-in-hand and are more competitive than legal workers with the accompanying tax and regulatory demerits (from the point of view of employers). In a market economy, those who can work more cheaply will take the jobs of those who are more expensive to pay.
Finally, legal immigration automatically depresses wages and employment for domestic workers in that same industry. Just because immigration is not obviously harmful to us white-collar workers generally (though it certainly can be), it does not follow that it's good for everyone:
https://www.nber.org/papers/w23153
https://docs.iza.org/dp9107.pdf
And besides the economic aspects of mass immigration, we also have to deal with the social aspects of mass immigration. Allegiance to foreign powers, decline in communal/national feeling...
It seems relevant to note that a large percentage of illegal immigrants work in sectors which can't hire native workers at wages reasonable for the skill level, eg meatpacking plants.
A massive influx of slave labor (from Gaul, if I recall correctly) destroyed the economy of the late Roman Republic as surely as Chinese and illegal immigrant slave labor have the potential to destroy America's (if they haven't already; Canada's and Europe's are well on its way.) It created a massive influx of urban poor, too.
The whole point of going to China (or Mexico, Japan, SEA, Africa, etc.) is that you don't have to pay nearly as much in wages or for materials, the local government handles slave revolts for you, and you don't have to pay for novel solutions to environmental regulations (which are, in part if not in intent, designed to make sure US industry remains minimally competitive). It was always going to result in very specific people getting rich at the expense of everyone else.
Interestingly, that also implies that the unpleasantness of a job will lead to increased prices for the goods that job produces; ironically the solution to "but we want to ban farming because muh whatever" might come from "working in meat-packing plants is awful enough that people are demanding software engineer salaries to work in them" more than anything else.
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Then those businesses should go bankrupt and be replaced by ones willing to pay real wages. I'm perfectly happy to pay a bit more for my steak if it means the immigrants are no longer hanging around depressing wages and inflating property prices.
I won't remark upon you specifically, but the howling from the most anti-immigrant voters in the US about inflation suggests this isn't the case for most people. They like the idea of getting rid of immigrants, but they absolutely do not want to get rid of the benefits of immigrants.
YES THEY DO!
The "benefits" of immigrants are not evenly distributed, and in fact tend to accumulate at the higher levels of society. The people who benefit from illegal immigrants are not the people on wages who now have to compete for their labour, but the people who benefit from keeping the costs of services and manufacturing low - and do you think those people are living in the same kinds of real estate that illegal immigrants drive up the prices for? Talk about the economic benefits of migrants tends to talk about how they benefit "the economy" in abstract as a way to avoid talking about the actual impacts, positive and negative, that they have.
And as for those anti-immigrant voters, I'm extremely confident that a lot of them would be more than happy to pay a bit more for their steak in exchange for losing the negative consequences of illegal immigration, because those negative consequences involve them paying more and getting paid less.
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The fact that people are lamenting inflation in the last few years does not mean that they would be against all policies that would cause inflation. The inflation of the last few years is regarded by people on the right as an unforced error with no significant beneficial trade-offs. Just pure loss. By contrast, substantially reducing immigration - even if it resulted in slightly higher grocery bills - would be a substantial benefit (from their perspective) worth the tradeoff.
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I grew up in a blue collar family. I've known/worked with/lived next to many blue collar immigrant families. That main issue for everyone is illegal immigration. Having workers that don't have to pay income tax and companies that don't have to pay payroll tax, OSHA regs, etc., creates an unfair market which hurts blue collar wages.
The amount of eye rolling I've gotten from 'informed white collar Americans' basically pointing to a bad study and tell me I'm wrong is waaay too high.
I seems like you're the one with no actual interactions with the people you are talking about.
As a lilly white former trady in the brown zone FROM the brown zone: big shrug lol.
I also just don't believe it when people tell me their solution to immigration is to eg. criminalize it even harder instead of paying like 20000 guys total to just roll around various job sites factories and farm feilds, do green card checks, and fucking ANIHILATE any company that fails to pass.
If hiring illegals to do osha violating skut work for pennies is punished with a stern finger wag is it actually a crime?
It's the classic identiterian nationalist/ rich dude who thinks the first guy is a fucking idiot coalition imo.
Just bring back legal temp workers, let them stay for a harvest season and then if they can do that a couple years in a row without driving drunk or some shit let them apply for a green card and don't make into a 8 year long Brazil style nightmare to actually get.
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Our immigrant pool is ... fine, certainly not awesome. It could be so much better than it already is if US immigration was intentionally administered in the interest of good immigrants. IQ tests, demonstrations of technical skill, unlimited in number but very expensive paid sponsorships, maybe with a culture exam or something if you care about that. Instead, there's generic administrative stasis and a political tug of war between 'poor mexican immigrants :(' and 'And Some, I Assume, Are Good People', and only minor improvements get done by pro skilled immigration interest groups.
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