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PaperclipPerfector  5mo ago (text post)   1984 thread views

Wellness Wednesday for November 29, 2023

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I recently watched a film regarding male loneliness and aging. Specifically, the main character was a middle-aged janitor that did not appear to ever pursue, or have any successful, romantic relationships. The premise of the movie is that he was often in a state of fantasy and delusion. He was shy and never approached women. In his fantasy he was intelligent and younger and he met a girlfriend at a trivia event.

The movie was mostly told from the perspective of his fictional girlfriend. In the fantasy/delusion many things initially seemed like reality, yet the movie seemed very eerie. As the movie progressed details kept shifting in a way that wasn’t consistent with reality (the fictional girlfriend had different careers, the parents weren’t a consistent age). The fictional girlfriend would sometimes verbalize that she was confused about details of the relationship or the events that were occurring. At the end of the movie the main character realizes it is all a delusion and commits suicide.

My interpretation of the movie was that it was trying to show the pain of male loneliness and how the mind can cope through maladaptive interpretations of reality and how the mind eventually starts to unravel when reconciling fantasy to reality.

I have some autistic traits which cause me to struggle with romantic relationships and I can see how in my past this caused me to have a maladaptive interpretation of reality. I would often place far too much blame on women for being shallow, etc. instead of looking inwards. SSC helped me get a better grip on reality and made me realize that I needed to improve myself. I have made a lot of progress on social anxiety and I’m much better at talking to people.

While my self-improvement journey led to a significant reduction of social anxiety when talking to new people (including attractive women) some new thoughts came to light. I’m now starting to question whether these new thoughts are just delusion cope:

  • I never really cared about getting a girlfriend, I just wanted social approval from my peers.

  • My sex drive has been especially low since I reduced my social anxiety. I haven’t really cared much about sex since then.

  • I don’t have a desire to try pursing a romantic relationship again because I enjoy alone time too much.

  • Most relationships require a draining amount of social performance (autistic masking) and it just doesn’t feel like it is worth the effort anymore.

  • My occasional social interactions are enough to satiate my social needs so I don’t need to seek deeper relationships.

  • I have self-diagnosed Asperger’s Syndrome and that is why I struggle with social connections.

How do I tell if any of these thoughts are just lies that I’m telling myself? My original strategy was to externalize my failures by blaming women and society, etc. Maybe now I have internalized my failures in ways that aren’t true.

I have some autistic traits which cause me to struggle with romantic relationships

Care to elaborate?

  • I avoid eye contact, and I get very uncomfortable if I force myself to hold eye contact
  • Trouble understanding non-verbal social cues, especially in real-time
  • Flat affect (showing very little emotion even if other people are). I also don't feel emotions much at all.
  • Disinterest/frustration with social interactions especially in large group or with people I don't know well
  • Disinterest in small talk, sports, etc.
  • Very logical/rational thinking and wanting to do things efficiently without regard for emotions.
  • Sticking to routines (eating similar food each week, doing similar things on a weekly basis, etc.)

Most relationships require a draining amount of social performance (autistic masking) and it just doesn’t feel like it is worth the effort anymore.

If you want to socialize but not with people who expect autistic masking, perhaps try to find some friends who don't expect autistic masking. i.e., other autistic people or people who socialize with them regularly.

Is this really how it works? My model of autists is that they might often be autistic in distinct ways such that if you put two random autists together you are more likely to get an unstoppable force meets immovable object situation as opposed to smooth social interaction.

Sometimes at least. I definitely know some people vaguely on the periphery of my friends group that talk a lot about being autistic and at least one of them mentions an autistic partner who doesn't really socialize with anyone else because they don't have to mask around their partner.

Is the film I'm Thinking of Ending Things?

Yes, that is the film that I'm talking about in my post.

I'm glad it got you thinking about your life, but for me I thought it was a bit shallow and gimmicky.

On the other hand, Anomalisa by the same director, I couldn't stop thinking about for ages.

This sounds like a film I would watch and recommend and my wife would see as infuriatingly typical of what she sees as my depressing, dark taste in movies. In other words I now plan to watch it.

The funny thing is, it was written and directed by Charlie Kaufman. He previously wrote and directed Anomalisa, a movie I loved and which I related to more than literally any other film (maybe any other work of fiction) I've ever seen in my life. He also wrote Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind which I've watched several times and loved every time, and Adaptation which, while not as powerful or thematically rich as the previous two, is just as clever, and absolutely hilarious.

So I was going into I'm Thinking of Ending Things with high expectations, which it utterly failed to meet. The weird parts of the three aforementioned films always had an in-story justification or were funny enough that you didn't care: here they seem like weird for the sake of weird. It's aiming for some kind of middle ground between surreal absurdist comedy (like Beckett) and straightforward psychological thriller (like Identity or Secret Window): it isn't funny enough for the former or unnerving enough for the latter. The man who once teased our brains with nested stories, obscure literary allusions and anachronic narrative now settles for the im14andthisisdeep territory of a title in which you initially think "ending things" means "dumping my boyfriend" but later realise it means "killing myself". Major disappointment from a man capable of far, far better. Cannot recommend.

That's disappointing. This is apparently adapted from a novel and not CK's original, if that explains anything. Edit: wrong letter

I mean, are you satisfied with where you are?

I’m satisfied for now, but I think there is room for improvement. I don’t know exactly what these improvements would be, but two thoughts that come to mind are spiritual growth and being able to retire sooner.

Being single seems optimal for now. In the future as I age I could see how that version of me would prefer some type of romantic relationship if it was low maintenance and with a woman who had a very low interest in sex.

If you're happy without companionship and don't want kids, then there's no reason to pursue a romantic relationship. "Low maintenance" is not a generally applicable descriptor thereof, after all. For spiritual growth you probably want to meet with a priest, not ask an internet forum for relationship advice. Likewise a financial planner is the person to talk to about your retirement account.

For spiritual growth you probably want to meet with a priest, not ask an internet forum for relationship advice. Likewise a financial planner is the person to talk to about your retirement account.

Indeed, and I am pursuing non-internet advice on those things. I was mostly bringing them up to make the point that they seemed more salient than romantic relationships in terms of life satisfaction.

I will add though that someone here mentioned John Vervaeke's Awakening from the Meaning Crisis and that has been really helpful on my spiritual journey. It gives me grammar and knowledge that I can use in other places of spiritual exploration.

Sounds like a stated preferences versus revealed preferences problem. You can't know which is true until you've had a genuine opportunity to choose.

That makes sense.

I’ve had some short-term romantic relationships and they always ended up feeling like the effort I was putting in wasn’t worth it. I felt like I was in a constant audition for her attention and that I had to remain vigilant about everything I did around her so she wouldn’t lose interest and leave me for another man with more relationship experience. I felt there were a lot of things I couldn’t open up about because it would be perceived as a sign of weakness.

My mental model of romantic relationships is probably heavily influenced by those experiences. If all future relationships are going to be like the past ones then I would be happier by remaining single. However, maybe not all relationships would turn out like that. Maybe I could find my 99% match that is unlike the other women I have been in romantic relationships with. I have a hard time envisioning that a new relationship would be different from previous ones based on my observations when interacting with new women.

Most relationships are like that in the beginning. People test each other, both for competence and interest.

That kind of testing doesn't persist indefinitely (unless they have something like bpd).

Do you think any of these dates developed an emotional attachment to you? I call them dates because this is not what deeper relationship are like at all. While dating as a man you usually need to adjust to female expectations but after a good connection is established it’s often the opposite and it’s the female who adapts to the guy’s personality and worldview.

I don't think any of these dates developed emotional attachments to me. The pattern seemed to be that she would view me as a nice/pleasant/reliable person but there wasn't enough beyond to generate a deeper emotional attachment.

I never really cared about getting a girlfriend, I just wanted social approval from my peers.

Back when I was single and lonely I could have been at risk of tell myself something exactly backwards from that:

I never really cared about social approval from my peers, I just wanted a girlfriend

That is to say, the desire for female companionship was far stronger and deeper and more substantial than any possibility that it was invented. On the other hand, the longing for social approval, while it objectively was also very real, was somewhat ephimeral and certainly displacable (and especially displacable by romantic approval of a single woman), to the point that I can kind of imagine that if I was slightly different, I could have falsely convinced myself that I didn't really care about social approval at all, it was just a dimension of my romantic loneliness. (and to be fair, once in a serious relationship, non-romantic social contexts do change tremendously and diminish in importance. )

So, what's my point? N=1, but if you can convince yourself that maybe you don't even really want a girlfriend, you're certainly outside of what my experience with normal romantic longing was. Far enough that it's true that you never really cared? I can't tell you that. But if you're looking for an outside measurement check - the ability to hold that thought doesn't resonate with my experience of authentically wanting a romantic partner.

Far enough that it's true that you never really cared?

Maybe a better way to express my thought is: I had an idealized version of what having a girlfriend would look like and how it would change my life. That is what I cared about and wanted.

After getting a girlfriend and many subsequent post-breakup dating interactions I realized that girlfriends and romantic relationships look a lot different than what I had idealized. I no longer cared much about them after replacing my idealized version of these ideas with versions based on my experiences.

Another potential component of this is I sometimes want something (such as a job) because I think it will be greatly beneficial. If I can’t get it then I will fixate on how much better my life would be if I just had this one thing. Then once I finally get it I quickly stop caring very much about it because it didn’t have the benefit I was expecting.

I can certainly identify with the 'having an idealize girl' feeling, and the 'adjusting to an actual girl not meeting those ideals', and that led in my dating life to a lot of introspection about whether I needed to adjust my perception or find a better girl. But never anything like

I no longer cared much about them after replacing my idealized version of these ideas with versions based on my experiences.

Any grappling with comparisons to idealized fantasy girls was part of a deep desire to find real girls that fit the bill, never anything like disillusionment with dating girls generally.

All that to say, I can't really help ya. I hope you work through what you need to and decide what is best for you.

Yeah. Evolution really really wants you to have kids (and you probably should!), so you'll have a strong drive for a romantic relationship independent from anything else.

Make that an N=2. When I've been single, I've had a healthy, happy, and normal social life with good long-term friends and a deep longing for romantic companionship (or at least sexual companionship that serves as a decent enough simulacrum for romance, even if it's not the real deal). In contrast, while romantically partnered, I have only very rarely felt that I didn't have enough of a social life outside of my relationship; the only time I can even think of was the government-imposed isolation of Covid. When considering romantic isolation, no amount of self-talk about objective material and platonic success even slightly moved the needle against being in dire need of a woman.

I know several of these feels.

Do you drink? I can't find a full-text source online, but see https://twitter.com/snowset/status/1625119258265911296

I don't drink often (~twice a month, never more than once a week) and only at bars. I aim for about .06-.08 BAC when I drink. On days I drink I also take Phenibut in the morning, which potentiates the alcohol in the evening. I become very confident and charismatic when I'm in this state (as long as I'm interacting with non-sober people). It feels amazing and euphoric. It is also like exposure therapy because some of the confidence remains when I sober up.

I intentionally only drink at bars so that I do not become dependent on needing alcohol in everyday situations.

What has your experience with alcohol been? Do you think I should drink or more or less than I do?

Well, it certainly sounds like you'd know if it helped. I barely drink, haven't really a/b tested for myself, but it does seem like I enjoy being around people more when I drink, and when I saw that excerpt it occurred to me that maybe the author was on to something.

What movie is this?

Sounds like I'm Thinking of Ending Things.

Yes, that is the movie that I was referring to.

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