This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
In my model, people buy vehicles outright with their savings. I get that it's not 1955 anymore and kids can't buy a decent car from a high-school part-time job any more. Cars are more expensive than they used to be, better too.
But I've seen all kinds of advertisements for buy-now-pay-later and other kinds of financing on furniture, clothing, even food. I think it's rather dystopian seeing financing so prominently in culture. Does nobody in the US have any savings or liquid wealth anymore? I assume people here do but people here are special, the WEIRDest amongst the WEIRD.
Apparently 40% of Americans would struggle with a sudden $1000 payment. Only 46% of young Baby Boomers could manage it, despite having decades to build up their wealth. https://www.cnbc.com/2021/01/11/just-39percent-of-americans-could-pay-for-a-1000-emergency-expense.html
Patrick McKenzie (tpot adjacent finance tech guy @patio11) had a pretty good Bits About Money on BNPL almost a year ago. They're not quite as insidious as you would think.
For WEIRD points, I pay for basically everything via credit (gaining reward points and risk protection less available by other means) but zero out the balance every month. As pointed out by the survey I'd be one of those who would "struggle" since I'd pay it by card despite having more than a reasonable amount of liquid wealth. I should probably park more of it in less liquid investments.
More options
Context Copy link
A few years ago I went to a Toyota dealership to consider purchasing a vehicle. I prefer used, but my wife insisted on new, so there we were. The dealership had a large maybe 7' tall propped up giant poster explaining that you could trade in your previous vehicle that you hadn't paid off and they would pay it off for you. They then would roll your remaining balance into a new loan with the additional balance for your new financed Toyota.
So it is a scheme to get you very indebted to Toyota finance with a second order loan.
Also sometimes Amazon has an option to pay for things over the next few months on credit.
Retailers get that giving you credit is the real way to sink their claws into you.
If it's zero interest and you're responsible there is not reason not to finance everything at 0% interest. I understand this is bad advice to dumb people who are not responsible but I've done very well just off inflation before opportunity cost into investments for financing many things.
Yes, the credit card issue. Conscientious people farm good credit scores by auto-paying their credit card debt off every month. It's free credit one month at a time. Or a few months at a time for furniture, etc. Time value adjusted $20 bills are lying around waiting for you to pick them up. Unless you are sort of low conscientiousness.
So credit companies rake in billions for the trivial price of constantly giving a few conscientious people free monthly microloans.
But it isn't actually "free" because the fees charged to merchants are passed on to the consumers. If everyone uses credit cards, everything costs more. (2% perhaps? Too lazy to look it up.) It's just hidden from you. The credit card companies aren't charities.
I could go on about how the agreements that merchants have to charge the same price to cash and credit customers are an abusive monopolistic practice, but not now.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
They run that survey every year, and they misrepresent it every year. They did not ask if someone would "struggle", they asked how they would pay it off. Not how they could pay it off, but how they would.
More options
Context Copy link
It took me a couple of years to notice how odd "school lunch debt" (and the stories about students facing consequences for unpaid debts) was. Who is extending students school lunch credit? Who is issuing the school lunch loans? Do students have to go through an application process that checks their creditworthiness?
Back when I was a kid, school lunches were free for anyone willing to fill out a form. Two different people at my high school said they got free lunches due to their parents falsely claiming financial stress.
That Aramark minimum-viable-product-food only fit for prisoners and public school students is free for the end user. Enjoy your free tiny rock-hard apple, slice of """pizza""" and tiny carton of fat free milk. My wife's description of school food in a communist country is so much better than what I recall growing up in privileged middle-class American suburban public schools.
More options
Context Copy link
No, the students are over drafting their school lunch accounts, usually by buying candy and Gatorade and the like, because the cafeteria knows they’ll more than likely get it from the parents(the ones who won’t pay are like 90% on free and reduced lunch).
Back before you could use lunch accounts like that, I used to loan shark other kids at the lunch table offering dollars for vending machines at flat 25¢ per day interest rates (within a class/social circle that virtually guaranteed repayment out of allowances). The market was always there to be exploited.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
BNPL is a pretty good deal- it's a 0% loan. I've got plenty of savings and even I've been tempted to sign up, but ultimately I'm just too allergic to debt and monthly payments. Used to be that you could get a car loan at 0%, too. That was a phenomenal deal.
"Struggling" here includes people who would have to dip into retirement savings or something along those lines. It's not just people who are literally penniless.
Actually, I wonder what is the math on BNPL vs credit card rewards of 2-3% on average? There is some combination of time and interest rates that would make Klarna optimal.
I don't know if the amount of money to be gained is high enough to ever make my timr worth it, but I would happily let an app optimize my spending and then take a share of the profits from not blindly using credit cards.
It's not either or, right? You can put the klarna payments on your cc.
Oh dang. I never used klarna so had no idea. I figured retailers were okay with klarna because klarna gave them lower fees than card processors. There seems to be a fair amount of free money to pick up here at 5% money markets if you can figure out how to be time-efficient on exploiting.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link