site banner
PaperclipPerfector  1yr ago (text post)   31096 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 18, 2023

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

6
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

My primary reaction is probably not exactly fair to the kid, but is still the first thing I think of - who gives a fuck? Seriously, how did getting into Cornell become such an important part of this kid's identity that it's upsetting to fail? Cornell is, of course, a very good school and people that go there are apt to go onto excellent careers, but the same is largely true for whatever slightly lower rung school he gets into. Nothing all that important is lost, his college future is still on the table, and the prospects after that remain bright. His SAT was good, but nothing special, and if it turns out that a black kid with a slightly lower score got in, I just don't really see the gigantic fuss. I don't like affirmative-action style policies, particularly in genuine tournament jobs, but I just can't get myself all that worked up that a bright, but unspectacular kid will wind up going to Pittsburgh instead of Cornell.

Cornell is, of course, a very good school and people that go there are apt to go onto excellent careers,

you answered the question. These schools are highly competitive for a reason.

The difference between Cornell and a slightly lower rank is just trivial. No one's poor because they got stuck going to UNC-Chapel Hill instead.

Eh, Cornell is ok. Do you know what Cornell Engineering students and MIT students have in common?

They both applied to MIT.

Wow, just wow. I thought promoting hate upon vulnerable groups was against the rules here.

I am confused at how the above comment is promoting hate upon vulnerable groups and would like to see this claim elaborated on.

I think the "vulnerable group" comment is referring to Cornell students' propensity to jump into the nearest gorge when undergoing stress.

Are you perhaps a Cornell student?

I don't give out details like that so I'll answer no.

I think it was just a joke about calling Cornell Engineering students so dumb that they're a vulnerable group. Obviously a joke because they're of course still quite smart, just not as smart as other top programs like MIT engineering.

What if a black kid with say a 1100 gets in? How big of a difference in score does it have to be for the white kid to complain?

Seems obviously stupid, like a waste of time to admit the not-very-bright kid, but I just don't care very much. Life isn't going to be fair in every individual example, but it's fair enough that I'm not really going to get wound up that a 1460 kid wound up one rung lower than they "should" be.

Honestly does that even hurt the white kid? White kid doesn’t get in over black kid. He then goes to next highest school on lists. Employer needing to find talent isn’t going to hire black 1100 SAT so the employer then hires at next school down the list they wouldn’t have gone to before. Kid ends up in same job.

The only thing is sort of effects is the excess hiring at Fang. He would have gotten the 250k a year at Facebook to do a light work versus the black kid.

Employer needing to find talent isn’t going to hire black 1100 SAT so the employer then hires at next school down the list they wouldn’t have gone to before.

How would the employer do this? Employers don't typically ask for your SAT score, and trying to do may result in a disparate impact claim.

Ideally grades but ivies have equalized those to so everyone gets a 3.8.

That does open the ability of somewhere like Georgia Tech to boost their prestige. Grade hard so employers can differentiate between candidates and tell the difference between candidates.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats