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I decided to share my theory (if we can call it that) about the origin of the ‘incel’ slur. I’m not claiming it’s terribly original or anything but I welcome your feedback about it because it’s a pure culture war phenomenon in my view and I wonder if my theory is sound.
To start with the obvious, pretty much every human community that ever existed have had concepts of the feminine and masculine as collections of desirable traits. This entails that men and women who refuse to live up to these ideals are disadvantaged in various ways. One way is social shaming. Again, let’s leave it that here; I’m aware that I could go off on dozens of tangents here and add dozens of qualifiers and interpretations to make my argument nuanced and elaborate, but I want to keep this concise.
One way to shame unmasculine men is to use the slur ‘nerd’ on them. This was the norm for a long time in Anglo-Saxon societies, and it sort of made sense. After all, nerds are interested in things and machines, not humans, who are anything but machines. The traits that make you a nerd, especially a hard-working and employable one, are exactly the traits that are useless, detrimental even, if you want to be a socially savvy, sexually successful cool guy. If you’re too boneheaded to correctly read the carefully calculated, covert signals women send out to you to indicate sexual interest without coming off to their social circle as dirty sluts, you’re not a real man. Especially if you’re also not interested in playing team sports etc.
At some point though, the Third(?) Industrial Revolution happens, and the computerization of science and the economy is in full swing. The men most disposed to become computer scientists and programmers happen to be nerds. Before that, programming used to be seen a lowly, dull desk job, basically not different from being a secretary, and a significant chunk of programmers were single women as a result. But now, society starts believing that learning to code is a secure path to having a high-paying career and the American Dream. It seems that only the sky is the limit in the digital revolution and the booming online sector. Young women come to realize that calling undesirable men ‘nerds’ just comes across as dumb and baseless to most people.
However, none of this means, of course, that unattractive male traits just disappeared, or that society is open to abandoning social shaming as a tool of controlling men. In fact, due to an unfortunate combination of the unintended(?) long-term consequences of feminist messaging and socially harmful, pathological trends like online porn addiction, endocrine disruptors, sedentary lifestyles, social atomization, the disappearance of male rites of passage and male bonding rituals etc., it seems that a growing segment of men are socially illiterate, repulsive and dull skinnyfat manchildren. Women no longer want to dismiss them as nerds, but they definitely want to dismiss them as…something.
At this point, due to online trends, society discovers the ‘incel’ term, and just starts using it as a replacement of ‘nerd’, basically. Later, online journos discover that the term was actually invented by some Canadian female college student 20 years earlier who was a romantic failure and started a long-defunct online message board for other college women in the same situation, who applied the term to themselves, not as a slur, and definitely not as something that conveys anti-feminist views etc., but all this is long forgotten and nobody cares anymore, so it doesn’t matter. Fast forward a few years, and it becomes normal for leftist women and their male ‘allies’ to dismiss anyone and everyone as ‘incel’, even married men with children as long as they come across as sufficiently deplorable to the average feminist.
I would substitute "fail" rather than "refuse". No man chooses to be 5'6".
Shame their parents weren't willing to indulge in a little HGH before their bones ossified.
It worked wonders for Messi.
I always have a mild hangup about dating girls who are significantly shorter than me (and of course, most are, unless you're Nordic, 6' might not be quite as remarkable in the West as it is in India, but it still falls into tall). If I'm serious enough to want kids with them, as I was with my ex, I am scared shitless at the possibility of my son(s) coming out short. I know being tall has been incredible for me, I have my charms regardless, but even average men are often hard countered by women setting 6' in their bio, or even implicitly in person or social settings (though women are certainly not the best at gauging it, hence so many guys who are 5'10" getting away with, they just recognize "tall"). And I've read research to the effect that taller men are trusted and respected more, and even paid better (!), just look at the heights of successful politicians versus the average male in their locale, or the average height of CEOs.
Now, if I had a daughter, that would hardly be a concern, but if it's a boy and he's not looking like he'll turn out at least as tall as I am, well, if I can't prescribe the HGH myself, I know someone who knows someone and so on. I guess the genes for height were there all along in our family, looking at me and my brother, though my dad probably spent at least half his adolescence malnourished. But knowing firsthand how much that matters, no way am I going to let my sons turn out short. I'd rather lop my legs off at the heels and give it to them as platforms.
I just looked this up, since I had never really noticed or thought about height all that much before. Turns out I've been spending time with all the tall ethnicities by accident. I didn't know the Balkans and Southern Slavic people were noticeably tall before, TIL.
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I have bad news for you. If you are the tallest in your family, your kids are most likely going to regress to the mean.
Unless your parents and their siblings and cousins, etc, were all that terribly malnourished, it's most likely you're an outlier.
My brother is a mere half inch shorter than me, a source of merciless mockery from my end. Well, it's good natured, it's not like he's suffering, being actually hot, to the extent that he has most of the girls in his med school after him, and all the gay guys, including a professor.
Very luckily for him, he's borderline asexual so doesn't give a shit about women. I wish I was so lucky, so I cherish every advantage I get. If there was a pill that shut off my libido without other side effects, I'd take it regularly and PRN.
Once can be a coincidence, twice is
enemyfriendly action. If you count my very large extended family, I'm not the tallest, but that's more evidence the genes are percolating in their somewhere. Nutrition certainly made everyone taller over the ages, but it is not remotely enough to account for 6 extra inches alone, not when the genes aren't helping. After all, I did once have a CT brain and they didn't find a pituitary adenoma, though that would have made me both tall and milkable.Besides, even if it's a fluke, the solution remains the same. Yay, more HGH, what can it not do?
This is actually what is at the root of the dispute between men and women. That men only like women because "all I am to you is a hole for you to stick your dick in". Without that desire, men don't care about women and don't want to interact with them. Of course women are going to resent being treated as a sex doll. We want men to like us for ourselves, to be interested in us as a unique person, not an interchangeable set of tits'n'ass.
I don't think there's an easy answer to this. If men only like women because SEX and nature prodding us all to reproduce the species, while women want LOVE besides/outside of sex again because of nature and forming groups to support and raise the new offspring, then we're all screwed because the traditional guard rails around sex/love = marriage and kids are being torn down and melted for scrap and we're getting nothing in return except unhappiness.
If we were all ape troupes back on the savannah, with one dominant male monopolising the females and the less dominant males sneaking around for sex, it might work out: males get sex or fight each other for access to females, females get offspring and support from other females in the troupe and genes from the winners of the male struggles. But we grew big brains on top of our instincts and we want seventeen contradictory things at once.
I do believe women can be interesting as people to men. It's just that, without sexual attraction in play, they have to compete with the other men on that front.
Maybe women find it naturally harder because they aren't interested in the same things as men to connect with them platonically as well as their male friends. Maybe most women never learn to be interesting due to having sexual attraction on their side. When I match with a woman on a dating app and see an empty bio or something that barely provides any hooks for a conversation, I am certainly overcome with an intense wave of apathy, no matter how hot she is.
I don't think that women and men should necessarily have the same interests; I don't see why men shouldn't have their own little clubs and women theirs, but I also see why that was lobbied against because there were advantages to being 'all boys together' networking. I think "your spouse should be your best friend as well" and the whole laundry list of requirements makes marriage tougher, because no one person can be all-in-all to another.
But if men and women can't be friends and have mutual interests outside of sexual attraction, I think that's bad for society as well; if both sexes are only looking at the other sex in terms of "do I find them fuckable?", then they don't see that person as a person, merely as a list of requirements to be ticked off and if failed, then not even considered. Yeah, I'm influenced here by Catholic teachingson human dignity and the idea of a person as a whole person, not a convenience and lifestyle add-on.
A lot of it is that now we are so used to choice, and a range of options, and maximally making our lives more convenient and to our own requirements, all over the entire range of experience, that we're shoving relationships into the same "I want to order off the menu and add in the secret sauce and can I get the special offer deluxe?" mindset of choice, choice, choice or else it's all wrong and someone is to blame.
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I wish I could be asexual as well, certainly would free up a lot of space in my head.
Risks of HGH for kids? I don't trust Dr Google on this one.
It's great, I'm aromantic as well which means I don't give a flying fig about men or their views of me as fuckable or not, and I have no stress around all that 😁 Means I relate to men on the level of "do I find you a likeable specimen of humanity?" and not "me want snoo-snoo", so if I don't like you, I don't have to tolerate your bullshit (unless you're my boss) on the faint hopes of "well maybe I can get a situationship* out of this".
*Stupidest fucking concept I've heard to date, what the hell is this need to invent new degrees of idiocy? You're fucking around, sleeping around, casual sex, fornicating. It's not a 'thing' or any kind of romantic association. It's mere convenience. 'Oh no, see, it's this special new modern thing that past generations never even thought of'. Past generations fucked around casually just fine, friend.
One downside to being asexual other than not having the drive to pass on your genes or ending up old without a family is...
If your're a man, you actually need to be competent and attractive in general for a lot of other things than getting women. No small part of me working out religiously, working hard on my career and not playing video games all day is thanks to those things making women more likely to like me. But I benefit from being fit, having money and not wasting my time nevertheless, even outside of fucking women.
If you're doing those things because you like them and get benefits from them, then "women will be more attracted" is secondary benefit. If you're doing it primarily because "women will be more attracted" and then it turns out they're not, that gets to be a problem of resentment on both sides: "I wasted all this time and effort for nothing, women are bitches" versus "joined an evening class in pottery, guy there was friendly and seemed nice while we were chatting about the class, the second he learned I had a boyfriend he ignored me and then dropped out of the class, guys only want one thing".
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You ideally give them during puberty, and as long as you don't go overboard and end up in gigantism territory, it's not much of a concern.
I don't recall anything else particularly pressing, but you don't need all that much of it to have noticeable effects. You can look into the therapy Messi received if you want a simple example investigated with Thorough Journalistic Depth.
While I'm not an endocrinologist or paediatrician, I know that it's often offered as a treatment for dwarfism due to HGH deficiency. Haven't heard of any serious issues when dosed correctly, and it's an ongoing therapy so plenty of time to reduce doses or stop if something isn't right.
Just don't take it when your bones have fully ossified and fused, I'd say 18 is concerning, 21 dangerous. Unless you really crave the neanderthal look, I heard it's in vogue these days.
Hey, sorry for the oddball question (I promise not to take this as medical advice, I have an endo and will ask them these questions but would much appreciate some info on this topic if possible): What if you have a 22-year old with growth plates that are still slightly open in proximal tibia, distal femur, proximal femur and proximal humerus, but that person is 3-4 inches shorter than the rest of their generation in their family, with noticeably narrower bones as well?
For background, I was born a bit premature with borderline low birth weight, grew normally up to age 9, and then developed anorexia nervosa at age 9 which lasted right up until age 20, at times mildly underweight and at times significantly underweight, maybe briefly normal weight for a 1-year period around age 12. I have osteoporosis as a result, which I suppose is a sign of how bad the malnutrition was, but I've recovered since, and have not been underweight for 1 year and reached an optimal BMI of 20 now at age 22 (completing recovery from the eating disorder). I take this recovery as a win, but at the same time I am insecure about my frame size, mainly height but also things like hand/foot size, shoulder width, arm length, overall ribcage diameter, and seeming lack of appositional growth of my bones too, although I'm not sure when most of the appositional growth is supposed to happen so I'm not sure if it was the anorexia or lower birth weight that did that.
I have heard of catch-up growth; I've read about cases of hypothyroid men in their mid 20s growing inches after HGH treatment, but I'm not sure if the level of delay in growth maturation is less significant for anorexia than for hypothyroidism, making me wonder whether I have as much potential to "catch-up" as the hypothyroid men due to our having different etiologies of growth retardation. Apparently hypothyroidism is one of the hormonal effects of anorexia so perhaps they're not as different as I currently believe but I'm not informed enough to know whether this is the case.
Would HGH make any sense at all in this situation? If there is any growth potential left, would it just happen naturally now that I'm at a normal weight, without the need for HGH? I'm thinking the minimalist approach would be to let nature take its course now, and if my body can indeed grow more, it will do so, without the risk of hormone treatment. But another side of me wonders whether, due to my age, some sort of kick-start is needed for the growth process to commence?
Also, regardless of etiology of growth retardation, if plates are still technically open but nearly closed in someone's 20s, is HGH worth it or just too risky?
Thank you.
Oh dear. I am really not an endocrinologist or paediatrician.
This is incredibly far outside what I can reasonably consider my expertise, and you have asked a complex question to boot.
Growth plate fusion is very important, and given your age, you'd need an xray to very carefully examine your growth plates to figure out how safe it is.
To put the difficulty of your question in perspective, I'd be barely more at ease if asked by someone if they needed open heart surgery.
I could ask you to elaborate and provide reports and so on, but I'm still not remotely comfortable with the topic, especially at that age, it would entail me cracking open textbooks and research papers and feverishly reading, and it's not laziness that makes me wish to avoid it, it's the fact that I still wouldn't be sure if my advice was sound in your case, especially with the risk of acromegaly.
You absolutely need a different kind of doctor, not a psych trainee, this is genuinely above my paygrade and I would have to be crazy to comment without significantly more experience in the subject, which seems rather unlikely to come about.
My apologies, while I'm not one to gatekeep medical advice, this isn't something I feel qualified to speak about, especially with so many confounding factors. My innate reaction is "probably not a good idea, if the plates are almost fused" but even that isn't a statement from confidence.
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The trouble is, you will get the arms race. If everyone is now 6 foot minimum, the new filtering level will be 6 foot 3. Then future versions of you will be "I hope my sons won't be 6 foot manlets, I'm going to put them all on HGH so they're at least 6 foot 6".
Do that enough and we will end up with the 7 foot NBA version of "we must ensure our kids have all advantages" you're scorning.
On the plus side, Elendil the Tall is the role model to aim for 😁 "2 rangar minimum, 6 foot shorties DNI"!
Giving your kids anything that, that explicitly gives them an edge in the dating market is gauche and very outside the Overton window. Hell taking steroids yourself for it is..
He doesn't need to worry about an arm's race anytime soon.
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I expect my grandkids, if they exist, will be simulated entities in a Matrioshka brain. When it's the size of the sun and change, I think it becomes a bit moot 🧐
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At least if bodymodding is available to all, then everyone will be able to reach whatever equilibrium there is (square-cube law should eventually put a cap on height).
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Anecdotes being anecdotes and all, but I my personal experience makes me believe this whole thing is just wildly overrated. I'm just a bit over 5'8" and this has literally never been a problem with women. I have never met a woman I was romantically interested in that seemed even remotely put off by my relative shortness, including a couple hookups that were a shade taller me than me. Height is certainly an advantage, but it seems more like an advantage in the same way that social status, income, good looks, and physicality are rather than just a categorical one. I'm sure my predilection for dating petite women has helped on this one, but I really do think that treating height as an insurmountable obstacle has more to do with coping and excusing other personal failings than anything else.
As a 5'3" guy... yes, it is a major impediment. It doesn't preclude relationships or even casual hookups, but it substantially increases search time and costs.
Back in my online dating days, I did some experiments, and every two inch increase roughly doubled my match rate, with diminishing returns starting around 5'10" (typical results for my profile: one match per week at real height, 3-5 matches per day at 5'10, with me swiping right on about half of profiles). That said, results in the real world are much less bleak, though it still acts as an impediment.
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You're in the acceptable range for girls when it comes to height, especially the petite ones.
Much shorter, and it becomes a turnoff, much taller, and well.. Whereas for you, it's roughly just neutral.
And while I can't comment on the particulars of who you've dated or fell for, I can assure you that there are plenty of women for whom being short is a deal breaker. Obviously not all of them, note I never claimed that at all. It's a tautology that half of men are shorter than average, and believe me 50% of men aren't unable to find a partner and settle down. It isn't that bad. But unless they're exceptionally rude, most girls won't say to your face that your height isn't good enough, so you might well be missing out on those, especially since you say you've only dated the ones shorter or just very slightly taller. Believe me when I say that I have plenty of female friends, and I've heard them dismiss tons of guys for not being tall enough.
And even if someone is short, they might be handsome. Rich. Be a comedian, or famous. But it's a handicap nonetheless. Simply not insurmountable.
However it is incontrovertibly true that height helps, the more the merrier until you end up in the NBA or die young from back issues.
Now, I don't think I'd be utterly fucked if I magically lost 3 inches, but I know for a fact it would sting, and I want what's best for my kids. If they're a boy and not making the cut, then HGH it is, unless we have something better. I'm confident my height has enabled me to do more than I otherwise could, such as be taken more seriously as a doctor, or land women who demand that in men.
I am certainly doing my best to ensure my kids have the other advantages you mention, such as being at least (hopefully) UMC when they're born, seeing someone cute so that there's a chance they're born with decent looks (not that I'm ugly, just average, 7/10 on a good day), and I demand my partner is smart, which is also genetic.
You won't see me knocking up a 10/10 bimbo, let alone wifing one. But height is something that's done a lot for me, and I'll go to great lengths to ensure it advantages my kids.
Oh, sure, I accept pretty much without question that genuinely tall girls are right out. They don't want me and I don't want them. Nothing personal. That just doesn't eliminate enough of the pool to really be much of a problem.
To be clear, I'm not claiming that height isn't a distinct life advantage, just that it's a sliding scale rather than categorical. Being doomed to date women that are mostly median height and below isn't really much of a problem. Like a number of other things in life, the good news is that if you get it right even once, you're all set anyway.
But I've never claimed it was categorical either!
It is certainly a distinct advantage, one I prize dearly from personal experience, but people can make do without it.
You're average height for a guy, or roughly so, which means the majority of women are shorter than you. Consider the pain of men who are even worse off. They have a smaller pool of women, and said women a larger pool of men who have a height advantage.
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Is your mother extraordinarily tall, or where did you get your height? It seems odd to write off possible wife and mother on the grounds that "she's not five foot nine, my possible sons possibly might be under six feet tall!"
Also, if you have short daughters, then you're just setting up the next generation of "this woman is too short to be the mother of my future sons", so better put them on HGH as well.
My mom and dad are the same height, name 5'6. It's always been a mild peeve that she can't wear heels, but they get along fine regardless. I'm by far the tallest on dad's side, and there are plenty of my male relations who were born after the immediate decade or so of privation from being penniless refugees fleeing a genocide ended. My mom was considered quite tall for a girl, by Indian standards of her time, though that's only just slightly above average now for the newer crop. Her side of the family did tend taller, but even then, uh, maybe like two of my maternal cousins once removed are taller than me? And it's a very big family.
My paternal grandpa was supposedly quite tall, but then again, he died of cancer shortly after being lined up against a wall, though the cancer got him only because the Pakistani lieutenant responsible for rounding up all "military aged males" in the village took pity on a 65 year old man quite obviously on the verge of death. Maybe they were being frugal with the bullets, but I like to be charitable.
So it's possible that my dad drew the short straw, semi-literally, and my mom's side was always taller than average.
Note that I never said a girl being short was a deal-breaker. I was planning to marry my ex after all, and she'd need 12 inch heels and a stiff breeze upwards to look me in the eye.
I wouldn't call my concern with the height of my future son irrational at the least, height matters for men, I'm suitably thankful for being lucky in that regard. Given that my brother is almost as tall (albeit much more handsome), I am modestly confident it wasn't a fluke. The genes for height are complicated, but there's an equation for a rough and ready estimate of the likely height of your kids, based off the average of the parents and adjusting upwards by 3 inches if blue, down if pink.
If I married someone 5' tall and had a boy, they will likely be around 5'9" tall, on average. This is only an estimate, maybe they'd be lucky like I was. I'd prefer not to take the risk, though it's hardly the end of world when it comes to my choice in partner. Just something that eats away at me from the inside.
I expect gene therapy for any purpose, including height to be easily available by then. It's a shame it's not here in time for me, but if I ever went to the trouble of going the IVF route and paid for genetic screening, I suspect I could buy it. I don't want my son to be 7' tall, but even a humble 6' and change is acceptable. I'd settle for 5'10 assuming everyone else wasn't making their Uber-kids taller. I don't need IVF, I know (regrettably) that the swimmers swim.
And what's wrong with HGH anyway? Your body makes it by the bucketload during puberty and in small amounts elsewhere. It only causes issues if given too late, or produced by a tumour when the bones are fused, making you look like a gorilla. (Gigantism during puberty, acromegaly is the gorilla bit)
It's modestly expensive, but it'll pay for itself, and I'm not quite planning the future of my grandchildren yet. Though I do hope to be around to see them.
Believe me that most men couldn't give less of a shit about the height of a girl if she's cute. Women? Oh boy.
Sure, height matters, but I think you're hanging a lot more on it than is warranted, and if your dad had the same concerns as you, then he wouldn't have married your mother. You can't control these things unless you are going to go for polygenic embryonic selection, so why stress about "she's suitable in every way except height"?
Yeah, women like tall men, but that often means just "taller than me". If she's five foot six and you're five foot ten, she's not going to be crossing you off the list of "not quite six feet, pity". Height alone isn't going to be a deal-breaker, and if it is, then I think (to be honest) you're better off without that sort of neurotic type.
My parents had an arranged marriage lol. My mom was too much of a nerd to even date before that, and that too she had to rush it because of her younger sister.
Given that my dad was an up and coming surgeon who had already made a name for himself, and she was considered tall for women while he was average for men, I doubt it was a big deal. But I have heard her grumble about it, sotto voce, or else how would I know about the heels thing? Oh, and he did have a really nice head of hair at the time. Shame it didn't last.
I don't think I'm likely to go for polygenic embro selection (yay, someone remembered what I was yapping about), given that IVF itself is expensive. And I have other ways to handle the height issue, should it even prove to be an issue.
You know that 5'10" is considered tall too right? Six has magic connotations, but even that's a perfectly respectable height for an adult male.
So you see, I don't particularly worry about height, especially given what I told you about my ex who I was serious about. But I would certainly prefer a girl who likes me for more than my height, and I do have other qualities if I say so myself. Worst case, HGH. It's safe enough. If I'm even alive to have kids and know that they're coming out short.
Yes, that's what I meant that five foot ten is tall, so this mythical list of "six foot or GTFO" is something I find difficult to believe. I could see it as a filtering mechanism, similar to how jobs ask for "five years of experience in a two year old technology" just to weed out the excess number of applicants, but I don't think it's more than that on a dating app where the story seems to be that there are always more men than women on these and the women get flooded with requests.
You'll find that I never claimed that being literally six feet or above is necessary, in the "GTFO" way.
Women are actually pretty bad at judging height. It's trivial for men close-ish to 6 to lie on the apps, and even then they're unlikely to get rumbled on a date. However, I'm just grateful I don't have to lie, and whatever combination of nature and nurture put me here, it staggered to the finish line before collapsing. But a lot of women (percentage unknown to me, but it's non-negligible) set height filters, and the de-facto standard if 6' or 180 cm for the metric folk (see, they're cutting you a whole 2 or 3 centimeters of slack!).
What I am saying is:
I'd be equally as concerned with my kids turning out dumb or ugly, which why I wouldn't marry someone hot but dumb. And while I'm no Adonis, I still pray that I end up with someone tugging in the rightward direction.
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Figures in the UK and US are skewed by immigration. In upper-middle class circles the average height of a man of European descent is 6’ or taller.
A cursory Google search tells me it's 5'9 for white men in the UK and 5'10 in the US.
I know height correlates with income/wealth, but I couldn't find anything about UMC white men specifically. Well, not with the amount of effort I'll give at the middle of a tiring shift.
All I can tell you is that while I'm not as a relatively tall as in India, my time in my UK suggests that it's hardly middle of the pack either.
Even taking at face value your claim that UMC white men are 6' on average, then I'll just be average, which is presumably neutral. And my height isn't doing all the heavy lifting.
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My ex was a bespectacled 5' Chinese girl. We used to joke that if we had boys, best-case scenario they'd be just as tall as me and just as attractive as her; worst-case scenario, they'd be myopic, ginger Asian midgets. Can you imagine the bullying you'd get as a boy who's short, ginger and Asian?
FWIW, there is a lot less persecution of gingers in the UK now than there was when I was a kid. My red-headed son is the most popular kid in his class. Was gingerism ever a big deal in the US?
I live in Ireland and still get my fair share of slagging. A few years ago I could hardly leave the house without someone pointing at me and saying "hey look lads, Ed Sheeran's on tour!" but that dropped off after I lost weight.
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The ginger gene is recessive, so you'd only need to worry about quarter asian ginger grandkids.
Quarter Asian, or quarter ginger? Which is more worrying? 👩🦰👨🦰
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Load off my mind.
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I'd rather not, but since you've put the idea in my head, it's a good thing I've got the DSM and ICD diagnostic criteria for depression open on my tablet.
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