Ohio
faceh
10mo ago
Too bad for Trump virtually nobody does that, and most avenues silo you away from trying to.
I've already heard two independent reports that some person watching the debate heard the claim about eating cats and dogs and Googled it, thus finding out that there is some controversy over Haitian refugees in Springfield, Ohio and the disappearance of house pets. At that point, they aren't thinking "Trump lied to me!" they're thinking about the crazy story they hadn't heard of yet.
It does happen. Whether it makes a difference? I don't know.
No_one
10mo ago
Why bring up the Springfield pets thing?
Because when democrats are forced to fact check that and say "the guy who is seen carrying a goose is South African" etc, they're not helping themselves much. And there's police reports of people killing geese in the park and loading them in cars from Springfield, Ohio.
Here's a interview from Springfield. It's rough.
Here's another thirty minutes of residents complaining.
Kamala is a competent but relatively weak debater,
She's being accused of having used help during the debate, though. Her earrings look very similar to wireless headphone earrings being sold. And her frequent gaffes with compound sentences are suspicious.
On the other hand, she did pass the bar exam, so, it might be a legit okay performance.
After learning how common such culinary practices are in Haiti, I actually find it hard to believe that it isn't happening in Ohio. It should have been predictable. It's not exactly easy to prove someone has been eating cats, especially if they have even an inkling that they're not supposed to--the evidence tends to disappear. Moreover, the authorities and media have very little incentive to look for the evidence, since it can only bring trouble for them--better to just say there is no legitimate evidence and move on. 20,000 is a lot of people, and Haitians aren't exactly known for their tempered good judgement. Even if most of them know they're not supposed to be eating the cats, it only takes a few. If only 1 percent kept on doing so, then that's 200 people. If 200 people in town start eating the local "wildlife", then that's going to impact very quickly. It's basically the same with driving without a license, contracting diseases, and all the other things that are apparently going down. These are massive impacts on a small town like Springfield, Ohio.
Allexis Telia Ferrell ate a cat in public in Ohio. However, she was born in the United States, and this seems more likely a mental health problem than a cultural difference.
AhhhTheFrench
We will sell no wine before its time
10mo ago
I think this ground has been trod over here and even by some radio news outfits I listen to. There simply isn't an elite pipeline that can deliver normal candidates with good educations and strong bona fides to the top of the republican ticket that can also appeal to the MAGA crowd. Repubs still do fine in local elections in many areas and have developed such a pipeline in the federalist society for court appointments. Democrats certainly have their race grifters, but repubs let in actual grifters time and time again even when it is obvious. There is just such a huge disconnect between MAGA and republicans like Mitt and the old guard. I mean the Republican MAGA presidential candidate is on TV rambling about Haitians eating dog meat in Ohio, and some people here will say, "well he is directionally correct". The fish is rotting from the head down.
Quantumfreakonomics
10mo ago
Outlaw83
10mo ago
1.) If you would've told a British person they were basically the same as a Serb or Bulgarian in I don't know, 1851, they likely would've punched you and called you some weird slur nobody knows anymore. But, also, the whole "these ethnic groups are all similar too each other so that immigration was OK, it's just these people won't be able to do it," is literally the same argument made against Italians, Jews, Slavs, and hell, the Swedes at one time. This weird 'we're all white and should have solidarity' is a thing that never existed. As I've might've said before, as the descendent of Pole's, it's actually far more likely some ancestor of current non-college educated half-German guy in rural Ohio did a bit of light war crimes of ancestors of mine, as far as nothing bad has been done to my ancestors by non-European immigrants, so why should I, as argued below, have solidarity with them on racial lines?
2.) I'm quite sure the ole' American assimilation process (which continues largely the same way it always has despite protests to the contrary) will do it's work on Salvadorans, Venezuelans, and whomever else is the scary migrant group of the week. Yes, yes, the culture will change around that - welcome to being in the position of Bill the Butcher in 1863 upset the Irish were changing things or whatever. We're not some European country where people stay on the same patch of land for 9,000 generations. Things shift and change, and whatever you think was the perfect time that we globalists ruined was a time of ruin and destruction for some a generation or two older than you.
As far as imparting cultural sentiments, I don't know, Trump seems to be winning over Hispanic's fine. A little economic success leading to ladder pulling does not know color. It's an American tradition.
3.) Which is probably my inherent bedrock disagreement on where we don't agree - America's not getting worse to me. There are issues, as always, but in the long run, even with Trump, things continue to progress bit by bit.
SoonToBeBanned
10mo ago
What evidence? Snopes isn't great but they say this photo is from Columbus, Ohio not Springfield. And there's no evidence the man is Haitian and not just some black American. There's this video from someone at what looks like a public community meeting in Springfield claiming such (@1:04). But who knows how legit the rumors he's quoting are.
Just so we're clear. The video of a cat eating woman (Alexis Telia Ferrell) was also not from Springfield and was not known to be Haitian rather than just some black American, probably on drugs.
Outlaw83
10mo ago
From the outside, the problem is all the supposedly "better" right-wing candidates fail more spectacularly, at least in the US in elections that aren't in blood-red areas.
Or at least ones that people of your political persuasion would agree with.
But J.D. Vance underran the entire Republican ticket in Ohio in 2022. Blake Masters lost a winnable Senate race. All of the other politicians somewhat friendly to your sort of arguments are in deep red seats a corpse could win reelection too. Hell, I wouldn't say Mark Robinson is on your side, but he's a populist right-winger of a sort and he's losing by 10 in North Carolina. Maybe I can give you DeSantis, but he fell on his face on the national stage.
Obviously, this would not be the real result, but they polled a Harris-Vance race, and it was 59-37 Harris. That's with the guy among current politicians, I'd argue, is the most normie-friendly of your set.
Trump's celebrity + Hillary running + COVID helping Trump like it did every other incumbent politician (only he was incompetent enough to blow the COVID boost basically all incumbents got worldwide) gave a sheen on Trump's political popularity that gave you guys the idea that people liked your ideas than they really did.
If the choice for the median voter is an HR lady stomping on their face forever telling them to put their gender in their bio and calling people by their chosen name or whatever you guys are selling, until you find somebody far better at selling yourself to normies, not online weirdos (I say this as an online weirdo of another political ideology), the HR ladies are going to keep winning, at least in the US.
Yes, with a dip in the economy, a Brian Kemp/Joni Ernest ticket in 2028 could totally win if Trump eats one too many Big Mac's, but that's not what the online right want
Springfield in Missouri, not Ohio.
Lmao. Embarrasing.
I swear I clicked on Illinois one. It even looks similar, though the creek going through the middle seems to be going east to west, not west to east.
omfalos
10mo ago
My attention while watching the debate was focused on how Trump would talk about Springfield, Ohio. He mixed up his words and messed up badly. It was his worst gaffe of the debate. It was a mistake to mention Springfield at all, though it could have been done better. I was focused on Springfield because it went viral on X only a couple days ago. Trump didn't learn about the viral story out of Springfield until less than a day before the debate. This was not enough time, obviously, for him to process the information and formulate a plan to exploit it. I was curious to see if Kamala knew about the Springfield "cat hoax", but she never had to respond because the moderator gave a thorough rebuttal to Donald Trump in her stead.
urquan
Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?
10mo ago
Doling Park? Close Memorial Park? Your second link goes to the Springfield in Missouri, not Ohio.
Outlaw83
10mo ago
I mean, one should be able to look at the crime rate of Springfield, Ohio over the next few years and see if things shift that much. Of course, history shows that at least w/ the first generation of immigrants, crime is likely to go down.
My first thought is that the real reason employers are so happy to have the Haitians is because they can pay them less, but not having been to the Midwest I may be underestimating the degredation of the native human capital.
Haitian-Americans seem to be doing okay so far, though one always has to be concerned about selection effects. Maybe Haiti's abysmal situation is due to instability and mismanagement. If only there were some way for an outside force to provide order, political stability, and facilitate foreign investment...
UPDATE: WE HAVE GEESE! The Federalist claims to have obtained a police report and non-emergency call from August where a citizen reports a group of Hatians who "all had geese in their hands." Finally, some actual journalism.
Outlaw83
10mo ago
So, there's some talk downthread about Springfield, Ohio, Haitian immigrants and such. Putting aside I guarantee in the late 19th century there was in fact plenty of examples of massive population changes, even in more rural parts of the country. Ironically, many of the same people who put forth those population changes are now the ones scared of immigration, so in 50 years, as is American tradition, these Haitian immigrants will be saying we shouldn't be letting in the Bangladeshi's or whomever.
But, the interesting thing is the questions about "why" anybody puts up with them and well, at least according to local business owners, because they're more likely to show up to do the job and not fail a drug test than the righteous pure American's currently living there.
https://youtube.com/watch?si=nke3DETnGvcaAHE4&v=FA80DOcJnu8&feature=youtu.be - Youtube video
https://x.com/otis_reid/status/1833578554778374462 - Quote from the factory owner.
Of course, 2016 J.D. Vance would probably agree with this factory owner about the get up 'n' go of this socioeconomic group of people instead of defending them from economic competition from supposedly mentally deficient Haitians.
Now, to quote a lot of Twitter, it is true the Haitians are ruining that community's traditions, by actually getting to work and not showing up high.
gattsuru
10mo ago
That'd be nice if true, but I'm not sure if it is. Vance gave a speech mentioning the immigration itself in early July, and Moreno was not long behind him. Right-wing and especially local media have been focused on it for at least two months.
It's not even the first version of the 'big jump in immigrants compared to local population', if somewhat higher in size, nor the first time it isn't happening turned into its happening and good. It's just that normally the path is local media covers it at all, Red Tribe media talks up some of the actual issues, and then Blue Tribe media has a nice whitewash, no one actually cares except if they're stuck listening to NPR while driving.
That's not a normative thing -- if these claims are false, that is bad! -- but it points to some Bad Incentives. And I'm not sure they can be meaningfully shown to be false, even if they are.
Sam_I_am
10mo ago
It looks like it is backfiring.
right now, the most common claims on the issue are turning out to be false
- The local police have no reports of stolen pets
- The picture of the guy holding the duck is not from Springfield, and we have no idea what his background is
- The women on bodycam footage accused of eating a cat is an American Citizen, registered to vote in 2018
And frankly, it should backfire. When most prominent stories that conservatives are sharing are false, then why should I not be skeptical of the whole thing? You'd think the onus would be on them to come up with the most easily-verifiable, most rock-solid claim.
No_one
10mo ago
They do fly but can't do it very well, so you get the idea.
I tried looking it up, and easily found some wild ducks with what appears to be a single pekin duck.
Springfield has a number of parks, almost all small and without water. Doling park and Close memorial park could hold a large amount of ducks, especially the latter. No ducks on Google Earth, but then the pictures are from august of '14 and it looks hot. No idea what ducks do in hot weather but sitting in the open on water is not optimal. There's one more park that has water in it, but it's a small stream.
jeroboam
10mo ago
Polluting the epistemic commons is bad, actually (inb4 "but my outgroup also does it!").
Agree in principle with the caveat that it's a Paradox of Toleration problem. If only one side tells outrageous lies (Trump wants to ban abortion nationwide!) and media is partisan and complicit, then the side that lies wins, and the principled libertarians wail and gnash teeth in the outer darkness.
Or, put another way, once the epistemic commons are polluted, they are really hard to unpollute. Probably we need to start with the universities.
I'd be curious to know where the claims of pet eating originated.
To the best I can tell there was a crazy woman in Ohio who ate a cat. She wasn't an immigrant and she didn't live in Springfield.
I live nearby and can say, in support of your first point: Springfield, Ohio was already totally fucked, and therefore it's a great place to put migrants. It is a quintessential Rust Belt city that was hollowed out by deindustrialization; it is a satellite of Dayton, which is even worse off.
This is happening much more widely even than what is reported on. Down the street from me, the village of Lockland was gutted by the closure of the original Stearns & Foster mattress factory in the early 2000s (along with many industrial closures for decades prior, and even the closure of the original Miami & Erie Canal in the 1910s... Lockland is a hard-luck place); it is now being resettled by Mauritanians, with the enthusiastic support of local NGOs.
I guess for the record, Mauritanians that I have met have been nice to me personally, and I am not aware of them making particular problems for everyone; but it is also true that they have concentrated in one neighborhood and turned it into Little Mauritania. I suppose it's better than the building sitting empty as they had done previously; but I wish that my own culture had simply stayed there and built new things after the factories closed, instead of decamping to distant commuter towns like Mason. Easy for me to say, I suppose.
Walterodim
Only equals speak the truth, that’s my thought on’t
10mo ago
Man, that Yahoo article really trips my trigger. JD Vance lied they say! What did he say?
On X, formerly Twitter, Vance amplified bogus “reports” that “people have had their pets abducted and eaten by people who shouldn’t be in this country.”
What's their refutation?
Springfield, Ohio, has been a hub for immigrants, and particularly Haitian immigrants, in recent years — contrary to Vance’s tweet, they are here legally — but there’s no evidence at all for these viral claims.
Whether they're here legally or not doesn't refute the claim that they shouldn't be in this country. Perhaps this is a genuine point of confusion, but I rather doubt it. There are many people that are here legally that I think should never have been allowed into the country in the first place. Their current legal status isn't even an attempt to rebut the claim that they shouldn't be here.
gattsuru
10mo ago
Springfield's city government estimated around 12-15k immigrants "in Clark County", on the FAQ, though it hasn't been updated in a while. Clark County as a whole has closer to 110k citizens, though a large portion of those not in Springfield proper are closer to Dayton or Columbus. 20k immigrants is a lot more plausible than you'd expect, especially if you start to include people who get dropped there and then migrate to other nearby towns, and given the extent that the Biden administration doesn't really care how disruptive it is.
Ohio wildfowl are a mess, both geese and ducks, not helped by the recent very dry conditions. You'd get in trouble with the feds for taking a baseball club to 'em, but you would be really hard pressed to run out, and at least no one credible is alleging that there's an entire army trying to depopulate the wildfowl rather than a few bad actors doing it.
The cat video going around is in reference to a (presumably not-mentally-well) lady in Canton, Ohio (aka Cleveland), about two hours drive northeast of Springfield. Her public defender suggests that she's not a recent immigrant and may even be a citizen, but not seeing a ton of confirmation on that.
WhiningCoil
10mo ago
What's happening in Springfield Ohio is punishment for voting wrong. "Great Replacement Theory" might not be the most watertight explanation. But NGOs run by deranged partisans who viscerally hate white rural Trump voters, as can be plainly seen by most of their social media activity, are certainly executing on perhaps a "Minor Replacement" plan.
Quantumfreakonomics
10mo ago
What is going on in Springfield, Ohio? 20,000 Haitian arrivals into a town of 60,000 seems insane, but the New York Times seems to back it up. I definitely don’t trust the NYT to give an honest portrayal of what the situation is like on the ground, but I don’t really trust a lot of the rumors going around Twitter either. I am seeing reports of Haitians killing the ducks at the park and eating them. There are even secondhand reports of Haitians eating pet cats.
What I am not seeing however is geolocated footage or images. How hard can it be to send a guy to the park to see if there are any ducks left? I am legitimately confused. None of this seems to make sense.
(Ohio) Canadian geese fear nothing, not even death.
They're really annoying.
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