This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
I remember even 15 years ago, when all this seemed like a fever dream, the activist claims that "If a child decides they want to, they can just resume a normal puberty" seemed insane to me. My mind automatically went to all the wrestlers I knew in highschool who's growth was stunted from constantly having to make weight for 4 years. There was no catching up on that growth after they quit wrestling. The chip on their shoulder manlet former wrestler stereotype exist for a reason. They were tricked by their coaches into peaking at 15, and sacrificed the stature of an adult and the romantic successes that come with it.
I doubt your typical highschool female athletic encounters this, but I know with Olympic level female gymnast (and other sports) who've been lifers, they often struggle with fertility, though I think it's an open and debated question how much of that is permanent. There does seem to be some risk of permanence if the condition occurs at the wrong time or for a long duration.
So I mean, in the context of these pre-trans examples around how important healthy puberty is, and how you don't get a do-over, it was shocking to me that anyone believed the activist lie that it was "fully reversible".
While I am sure there are nonzero examples of this happening in wrestling, you have causation backwards, unless you were at one of a few programs I doubt almost anyone else on this board could name for a very specific time scenario, no one would agree with this.
That is because wrestlers are little because its one of the sports where being little is a competitive advantage because of weight classes. And thus kids get more into it when they are sick of being shoved around by 6'4'' 300 lb guys on the football field or basketball court.
Of course, wrestling is also a much higher barrier to entry sport than either of those. The number of elite wrestlers who did not start very young (or at least in a combat sport very young) rounds to zero, OTOH there are many elite NFL/NBA athletes who picked up the game as high school freshman. This further makes it a family sport. Short dads who are concerned their kid is also going to be short encourage them to wrestle as that is a sport they will have a chance of excelling at.
And, yes, in season weight cutting does exist, but all the good programs have been managing it extremely well since the 90s. And anything from before that is just as likely to be related to anabolic steroid and other doping use. The fact is that, once you are a good wrestler, there is nothing better for your career than for you to hit a massive growth spurt and surge into the upper weight classes. They are not nearly as competitive as the middle weights from the 130-165ish range. Get above that in high school and more than half the kids you are facing didn't touch a mat until high school. I used to, as a freshman at 125 lbs, beat our starters from the 160-180 lb range (but couldn't beat most of the 130-150 range). Those guys were just kids on the football team and the football coach also was a wrestling assistant. This pattern remains into college where the heaviest classes are not as skilled, and even weight deficits are oft overcome by skills (see Kyle Dake's career).
More options
Context Copy link
Isn't the corollary to this that we should also ban teenage wrestling and gymnastics in addition to puberty blockers?
It is kind of sad that the only group of people with as many long-term health problems as the terminally sedentary are the sports nuts.
More options
Context Copy link
Well there's an important distinction in that one is pursuit of competitive greatness and the other is entirely inwardly focused.
Though perhaps we split the baby and make transition a competitive activity. If you're on the varsity squad, which means you've put in your time and are able to trick a panel of judges into believing you're actually the gender you identify as, you get access to the best equipment and medical interventions.
If you're JV, well good for you, here's a used dress, a Party City wig, some Maybelline, and a couple of balloons.
Parents could rest easier if they could take a look at their kid and know that even if they were susceptible to some dangerous ideas, there's no way they could physically pass as the opposite gender. Or, you just know your kid doesn't have the grit to actually make it to varsity even if they have the figure for it.
More options
Context Copy link
Not particularly? Or maybe properly informed parental consent is good enough? You see this a lot with football now, where the concussion risk is so high that parents won't let their kids play it anymore, and instead encourage other sports.
I'm of two minds about it. I'm a huge proponent of fitness, and I fucking loved the decade I spent in martial arts. The concussion I got from it was not so much fun. Nor the spots I still have in my vision, my torn ankle that aches at night if the sheets are tucked in, or the fact that I broke my right hand twice and the knuckles on my right hand line up different than the knuckles on my left now. But I suppose for a 10 year amateur career, that's not horrible, and those were the choices I made largely as an adult. Nobody rode my ass, I pushed myself exactly as hard as I wanted to, until I didn't anymore. And I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting their kids to do a sport, within the boundaries of safety and reason.
It seems somehow more sinister when coaches are pushing children beyond the limits of safety and reason, with health outcomes they would be in a unique position to be aware of, but which they ignore. And if there were programs or coaches that systematically abused children in that way, I would like to see them banned.
More options
Context Copy link
Elite teenage wrestling / gymnastics (and possibly other sports). Sure, I'd be in favor of that. The benefit of sports is that it gets you off your ass, teaches you discipline, possibly team work, how to git gud, how to deal with failure, etc. etc., If kids are practicing sports to the point of predictable long-term health consequences, then things have gotten rather retarded.
The key is to encourage multi-sport focus rather than elite specialization. IMHO.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Yeah all the steroids abuse by teen athletes seems like a natural experiment to look at. I'm not even sure steroids are as impactful as hormone therapy, but no one thinks steroids for kid athletes was good idea. The "medical" justification for both is kinda the same too, self hostage taking. "I'll be sad and kill myself if you don't let me take these drugs."
More options
Context Copy link
Just as an anecdote, I do personally know a female former competitive gymnast who is now horribly sad because she's permanently infertile due to the physical stresses she was put through as a teen. Her husband's not in a great place with it either.
Definitely changed my perspective on encouraging my daughters to take up seriously-demanding physical activities.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link