site banner
naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   15598 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of December 19, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

16
Top Bottom New Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

deleted

It's a great side to serve with liberty steak.

Oh yeah, that really bugged me, too, even though I was too young to have any political opinions back then. I'm half tempted to believe that this shows I'm balanced, since I just hate anyone who takes this sort of linguistic policing approach, and half tempted to say that this shows how much the times have changed, since 20 years ago it was the right that was trying to pull this crap, and now it's the left. I guess for what it's worth, I'm surrounded all day every day by people who were pissed off at the right 20 years ago about "freedom fries", who are now the same people bitching about "Kiev", so at least I didn't succumb to whatever mind disease they did in the past 2 decades, somehow.

I’ve just noticed that when the red tribe wants to rename something, it’s treated as pointless signaling or laughably poor gamesmanship, but when the blue tribe wants to rename something, all of the institutions of American public life get behind them. This asymmetry is one more reason Chthulu swims leftward.

Are you sure the Kyiv/Kiev thing is a red tribe/blue tribe issue, though? My understanding is that support for Ukraine has been and probably also still continues to be greatly bipartisan, as it is in most of the rest of the west, and people have reported seeing Ukrainian flags or expressions of admiration to Zelensky etc. in small Republican-voting towns in their areas here, at least.

Not the OP but will say that IME, yes support for Ukraine seems to be a bipartisan issue. The Kyiv/Kiev spelling thing seems to be a non issue to me, as @sarker notes in most the change in spelling seems to have followed the official change of name a few years back, but pronunciation on the other hand seems to be becoming something of a shibboleth with "Keeve" being a blue tribe marker while every one else says "Key-ev"

Uh, small town red tribers are anti-Russian, but not in the sense of buying into(Or understanding) the shibboleths of Ukrainian nationalism. It would be totally normal to say Kiev in the middle of a rant about stopping Putin.

I live in the rural southern US and this has not been my experience at all. Frustration with the Republican neocon war backing could not be higher.

Ranting about "stopping Putin" will get you 100% assumed to be a liberal since only liberals hate him enough to care.

Frustration with spending all this money and weapons on Ukraine is common, but almost nobody actually likes Putin or Russia. Ranting about stopping Putin/Russia is distinctly boomerish, but not necessarily lib.

While probably generally true, the right in The US seems to have the only Ukrainian skeptical wing. That is, most people support Ukraine but if you find someone who objects to Ukraine policy chances are the person is right wing.

The right in the US is also unique, globally in its covid skepticism. All the while still maintaining that dynamic of most As are X but all Y are A.

I’m not sure about that. I mean even ignoring Canada, Eastern Europe and Africa seemed mostly United in not taking Covid particularly seriously, and there were left wing Covid skeptics in Britain, and Brazil had very similar partisan dynamics to the USA, which Bolsonaro seemed to be the driving force behind rather than monkey see monkey do.

I think it is because of the founding of the US. Unique amongst nations being conservative here has a liberal streak.

the right in The US seems to have the only Ukrainian skeptical wing

There is a nontrivial amount of skepticism from the tankie-adjacent wing of the far left: witness the DSA statements on the matter and that since-retracted letter from the House Progressive Caucus. Those have been largely pushed aside by the ruling faction, but aren't totally silent either.

deleted

Yes. It isn’t so much “rooting for the Russians” and more “none of our business; at least not enough of our business to spend 100b+”

deleted

Irrespective of their opinion on Ukraine as such, Red tribe folks tend to despise language policing and ridicule all «ackchyually, starting today the approved word is LatinX» type innovations. Politically correct identity labels, pronouns, trans women are women, Parents 1 and 2 (which Putin tried to play at), words are violence, retiring «problematic» technical terms like master/slave etcetera – they're always apprehensive at the least; and this basic conservative trait, following from their core impulse of guarding against alien moral coercion, is consistent throughout the battlefronts of the Culture War and across the shades of Red. It would be perfectly natural for gun-toting patriots in those small Republican-voting towns to be in awe of Ghost of Kiev and solicit donations for the Ukraine – while taking the piss out of pearl-clutching Blues who accuse them of perpetuating linguistic harassment peddled by Russian trolls with the intent to subvert Our Democracy.

The red tribe would probably start saying ‘keev or however you say it’ if actual Ukrainians asked them to say Kyiv. But by and large it’s their tribal enemies trying to change language for reasons no one can actually explain(blue tribers largely not being well versed enough in Slavic languages to even pronounce‘Kyiv’ properly), which sets off their bullshit detectors.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats