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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   5391 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for January 22, 2023

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I'm a 27 year old kissless virgin. Part of the reason that I'm a kissless virgin may be that I want to find love and lose my virginity to the person I love, rather than have casual sex for the sake of it

My friend says women can tell if someone is a virgin, and that to wash off the figurative virgin smell, I should go have casual sex with women.

Assuming, for the moment, that I can achieve that with ease, is there any evidence that women can tell that a man is a virgin? How would they do so? Is a lack of confidence just being conflated with virginity here?

Like others say, women can't literally tell if you're a virgin (how could they?), but they can pick up on your 'vibe'. If you are insecure, it will reveal itself in subtle ways when you interact with women, which they can pick up on. Maybe getting laid would let you overcome the "I'm a virgin!" insecurity, in which case, it would indeed help you be more romantically successful. Not through some metaphysical sex magic, but by changing the way you think about yourself.

Also consider that you might have a fear of intimacy. Maybe you don't make romantic moves because you're afriad of what might happen, and justify this as "wanting to find love" and waiting for the "right time", which is a story you can keep telling yourself for years and years.

Models by Mark Manson is probably the best book on this subject.

Is a lack of confidence just being conflated with virginity here?

Yes.

If it helps, what it takes to have confidence is learning how to manipulate people you don't respect. Dating, in other words.

Bro that's absolutely not what dating is. You're not going to have a fulfilling relationship if you're just dating people you don't respect. The trick isn't to respect them less, it's to respect yourself more.

I've been with my partner almost fourteen years now, your concern has been noted.

If you want to be confident dating women, you have to learn to manipulate them in common ways. And when you learn just how common these ways are, it will make you respect the people it works on less. This will not be all women, but it will affect how you view them. LTR with someone you don't respect is a non-starter, I agree. The odds that everyone you date will be worthy of respect drop precipitously with each additional date.

Assuming, for the moment, that I can achieve that with ease, is there any evidence that women can tell that a man is a virgin? How would they do so?

The same way you can tell that someone is inexperienced in any domain I would imagine. But then again, it's not uncommon for sole guys to lose their confidence and go through dry spells where they give off the same vibe.

Exact same people people who shame you for being virgin, still would shame you "gee, he got his first sex at 27". Having sex a few times also isn't a working vaccine.

Less think about what people think of you, and do what you must do.

Given the way virgin is used as an insult on the internet, I think it's the conflation.

It's not quite a motte and Bailey but basically women can tell if a guy is unconfident and unassertive in exactly the way other men can tell. The only difference is other men don't care whereas most women will treat you differently in personal situations because of it.

Obviously nobody can actually tell if a man has had sex or not.

is there any evidence that women can tell that a man is a virgin

Unlikely as such, at least not until you get to the part where you are about to not be a virgin anymore. Definitely not by smell. But possibly by behavioral patterns you could be recognized as somebody who doesn't have a lot of romantic experience. Which of course technically not the same as being a virgin, and since at least for a male, literally nothing changes physiologically if you have had sex once, I don't think it is possible to recognize it as such by any means. But lack of experience/confidence definitely can be. I am assuming here you are a male and not a lesbian/bisexual woman, there I couldn't say anything at all.

As for "lose my virginity to the person I love" - I am not sure I am qualified to give advice here, but I'd say I am not sure it's worth it in general. Male virginity is not really prized that high in our culture (underlying reasons are, of course, biological but we turned them into cultural ones). On the other hand, the first attempts at sex, as many describe it, usually are not that great until you gain some experience and know what you're doing. If you're madly in love, it may be a part of an awesome process of self- and mutual discovery. On the other hand, it also may be frustrating and burdensome for both of you, especially if you both don't know what you're doing. It's ultimately your choice but I'd probably suggest not considering your virginity as too much of a gift to your future bride (most women aren't looking for it, unless for religious and similar reasons), and if you feel like having some casual encounters before committing to a more serious relationship - just do it.

As for "lose my virginity to the person I love" - I am not sure I am qualified to give advice here, but I'd say I am not sure it's worth it in general. Male virginity is not really prized that high in our culture (underlying reasons are, of course, biological but we turned them into cultural ones).

The intersubjective element isn't the only concern; there's also the personal issue - of regret.

There's some empirical evidence that males tend to regret the sex they didn't have, while women tend to regret the sex they did have (as you say, we come up with cultural justifications for this). Might want to factor in future regret as a cost of picking the wrong strategy.

I've seen other men in this position say similar things and I really wonder if they're just using a female regret-reduction model (especially when they're also passive - not a good male strategy).

If OP knows himself and regret isn't a potential issue...well then ignore the general tendency. But something worth considering.

Is a lack of confidence just being conflated with virginity here?

Yes. Or more specifically, not a lack of confidence per se, but the feeling that you are not where you want to be, you are not doing what you want to do, and you are not getting what you want out of life. What most attracts us to people is the feeling that they're doing exactly what they want to do, that they're in flow, slicing reality at the joints. Almost all nonreligious men in our society, and most religious men too unfortunately, want to get laid all the time with any available woman. So if one is a virgin, one is almost certainly not getting what one wants.

That's why sometimes virginity is perceived as a wildly unattractive feature. If you're doing it for religious reasons, then you're getting what you want, that's attractive. If you're doing it for non-religious reasons, no one will ever believe you anyway. You'll probably get a better reception among religious folk, which is where you ought to be looking for a similarly situated virgin bride anyway. {You'll probably have a lot of problems finding a true virgin among the religious anyway unless you're comfortable dating a younger woman.}

I just don't know any virgin women over age 25 who aren't religious, hideously ugly, or deeply unhealthy. Often multiple of those. If you're not looking for a religious woman, and a younger one at that, I don't see a path forward.

If you're not looking for a similarly situated virgin bride who will likely be a virgin for religious reasons, then I think you do have to question what the path looks like to being with the person you love.

I'm an awful degenerate. I don't think I could have seduced my wife if it wasn't for the yeo(wo)man's work other girls put in to to teach me what was what. The first time we were together was electric, and it's all flowed from there, we've been together ever since. Maybe love conquers all and it would have worked out even if I had been rather underwhelming in bed that first time, but maybe not. So when I look at how happy I am with my life and my wife, I think i should send a couple girls thank you cards.

I have no desire for the woman I'm with to be a virgin, but I suppose that I'd rather she not have high standards for sex, because I'm not sure I could satisfy her.

I don't have much to add in response, but I am grateful for every person who's replied to me so far. This is useful input and I appreciate it.

because I'm not sure I could satisfy her.

You absolutely can, and will, if you decide to. The standards for heterosexual men are barely above the floor, you have to limbo under that bar or trip over it to fail. While I hardly have perfect information, I'm perpetually shocked when I hear about what women out there tolerate. While I think your first time can be written off as a loss, and hell I tell any new partner going in that the first time together will probably be mid at best, you are not incapable of being a good lover in all likelihood.

Visit your local Hillel, say you're interested in getting in touch with the tradition, talk to people there. You'll probably get some guidance and maybe even a match. I'm not kidding, I've seen it happen.

For fuck's sake, you have a hereditary subscription to a superintelligent support network for autistic nerds, might as well use it once.

I'm not religious and I do not have the ability to support, nor any desire to have children. But I see your point.

Wait, can I visit a Hillel if I'm not in school?

Assuming, for the moment, that I can achieve that with ease, is there any evidence that women can tell that a man is a virgin? How would they do so? Is a lack of confidence just being conflated with virginity here?

They aren't smelling your literal virginity. They are sensing your lack of experience with everything that comes before sex. If you were some weird monk that took a new woman home every week, got all the way to the bedroom and then suddenly expelled the thot from your abode, no one would think you were a virgin until you finally got to the fun part and couldn't find where the penis goes.

Have you been actually actively looking for your love? Not just waiting for that divine maiden to cross your path one day? But trying to cross the path of every girl that looks like she might be what you're looking for yourself? Religious people marry young, you're losing time with every passing day.

I am actively looking, but I may not be doing so the right way.

I mean, if you were interviewing for a particular job, and you had never had any experience performing one of the duties listed in the job description, and the interviewers starting to ask questions of you about that duty or heaven forbid had you try to demonstrate talent, you might expect they'd notice your lack of experience pretty quick?

There's another idea that goes by many different names but one might need to 'demystify' the experience of sex in order to not be awkward when discussing the topic. You can study hard and understand it on an academic level, maybe even practice the mechanics of it, but that's like learning to dance with a mannequin. Or learning to box only against a bag. There are subtleties to handling another whole human being in the mix that can't be conveyed without actually doing it.

Note, I am 1000% NOT saying you should lose virginity for the hell of it.

Perhaps under one version of an ideal universe two virgins who truly love each other can go on a journey of sexual self-discovery together and thus forge a deep bond and comprehensive understanding of each other's preferences.

I DO think that's unrealistic unless you're actively part of a (probably religious) community that actively values and preserves the norms necessary for that to happen.

And, finally, if having sex is indeed a goal of yours (I assume it is) then if you want to have more of it you actually need to develop the ability to seduce a woman consistently, since it turns out most women don't give off "I want to bang you" signals constantly and the guy is going to have to put in enough effort to cross the threshold from "I am mildly attracted to you" to get there.

If you're bad at it, that by itself can be enough to repel a woman's interest. It's not that they're repelled because you're a virgin, you've just got no 'game.'

This is a something that can be practiced, but as a virgin, unless you're planning to practice it by getting a woman right up to the point where she wants sex but then backing down, I don't know how you can get good at it before meeting 'the one.'

I'm reminded of a (probably apocryphal, but does it matter?) story in how some erotica mag had a writer who wrote really hot stories, all the readers' favorites are from his pen. At some point there's a noticeable drop in quality, noticeable as in "readers note it and start sending in letters inquiring for the reason"; the editor goes to see the writer to ask what's the deal. Turns out the writer has lost his virginity; the stories just got too realistic to be good any more.

You're probably a virgin because you didn't try not to be a virgin. You're a long way from high school. I guarantee you, the standards to join the had-sex club are not high. It's nothing you're going to be shamed for except by people who want to shame you for other reasons.

Assuming, for the moment, that I can achieve that with ease, is there any evidence that women can tell that a man is a virgin?

By talking to you? Or by smell, or looking awkward or something? No, that's a trope from fiction. Be at peace.

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