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I don’t think it would be kumbayh in the Middle East if Israel suddenly disappeared, but historically the most common political arrangement in the Arab world is for there to be a large caliphate or empire dominating the region. Geographically, Israel splits the Arab world in two, preventing such an entity from forming. It might be good for the current great powers to keep the Arabs from coalescing into a single world power, but it does increase regional instability.
You’re right that Israel is not committing a genocide. I do think it’s apartheid though. Maybe apartheid is okay in certain circumstances (ending it didn’t work out particularly well for white South Africans), but this is not a political system that is typically tolerated in the civilized world. Something like the Gaza War would have happened if one of the apartheid-era bantustans had openly declared war on White South Africa.
I think there is an option for South Africa-style Truth and Reconciliation. It would be difficult after October 7 and the Gaza War, but I think it is still possible. Israelis don’t want to do this, for understandable reasons, but they could if they collectively wanted to.
Yitzhak Rabin’s assassination didn’t fall out of a coconut tree. He was killed by an Israeli for the explicit reason that he was willing to make peace with the Palestinians and hand over occupied land to them. This and the Cave of the Patriarchs massacre by Baruch Goldstein were massive escalations by Israeli extremists to torpedo the peace process.
I was a lot more sympathetic to Israel as an ethnostate proof-of-concept before they dragged my country into a major war. There is a criticism of ethnonationalism that since every ethnic group considers itself God’s gift to humanity, ethnostates will be especially prone to lash-out and start wars when they don’t get the respect they think they deserve. Israel has spectacularly failed to disprove this criticism.
How many wars have Japan, Korea and Liberia been involved in recently?
Even if Israel is an ethnostate, it's more diverse than several of these nations e.g. the 2 million Arab Israelis.
The Korean War has never officially ended, so depending on how you define "conflict" that might qualify. To a lesser extent, the Soviets declared war with Japan in 1945 but never officially ended the conflict.
I should have said "how many wars have Japan, Korea etc. started recently?".
Fair, although Japanese militarism in the 20th century was a distinct consequence of ethnonationalist supremacist policies, so "few wars, except for that really big one quite a long time ago".
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Almost certainly just a conflation of the revisionist fascist states of WW2 with ethnostates in general to better discredit the latter. At least, that's always been the purpose this criticism has served when I run into it.
Which is why the murderous and expansionist nature of the Soviets doesn't discredit propositional nations, nor is the theory debunked by the also-common criticism of the empires in WW1.
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I have found that in discussions of Israel, those who criticize Israel are reluctant to define terms like "apartheid." I think the reason for this is that it's not possible to define these sorts of terms broadly enough so that they apply to Israel while at the same time narrowly enough so that they don't apply to large numbers of other countries.
Would you be willing to provide a definition? Given your (tentative?) conclusion that Israel is an apartheid state, I think it's reasonable that you should explain what you mean by "apartheid."
Looking at the map, I would have to disagree. Israel is on the very edge of the Levant. Besides, in 1947 pretty much the entire Arab world was united against Israel and pan-Arabism fizzled out. If they are not able to unite with a clear common enemy, it's difficult to see how they would unite without one.
I'm curious how am apartheid definition could be applied to other countries/what other countries you have in mind, so I'll bite for your trap.
To establish a baseline:
"Apartheid (meaning "separateness" in Afrikaans) was a legally enforced system of institutionalized racial segregation and discrimination.
I would consider the West Bank to be part of Israel. I don't really care about de jure "ownership" because Israel clearly control access to the West Bank and maintains a monopoly of force over it. Same with Gaza. If they successfully gave those areas away to Egypt/whoever, then it won't be Israeli land. But until then it is.
So why is it apartheid?
both people in Gaza and the West Bank are wildly unable to travel to various parts of Israel, or even within those territories (segregation).
they have absolutely 0 control over their governance or laws (discrimination).
not just geographically segregated from Israel at large, they are also economically discriminated against in terms of allowable employment, trade, etc. (segregation and discrimination).
I realize that Israeli settlements in the WB (and they used to do them in Gaza too!) don't really fit into an "apartheid" definition, but they pretty clearly demonstrate the power and rights disparity between the Israeli government and the people who live in WB/Gaza. The Israeli government keeps nibbling on the WB, creating more and more places where the people of the West Bank are not allowed to go (segregation AND discrimination).
Now, do I think they should just tear down all the walls and make one happy state? No. The Palestinians are nightmare neighbors. There's a reason Egypt doesn't want Gaza lmao. But the Palestinians can both be awful neighbors and still be subject to apartheid. Theyre partially awful neighbors BECAUSE of the apartheid.
I don't have a proposal to a turnkey solution, and frankly I think there's so much bad blood this will just... never end until one side or the other gets genuinely ethnically cleansed and this gets put to bed.
But I'm pretty happy calling this a form or derivative of apartheid!
Now spring your trap! What other countries can be grouped by this?
How so?
Because both sides hate each other with deep passionate pools of hate which causes both sides to inflict attrocities on each other which makes both sides hate each other more, repeat!
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Lebanon, China, the fantasy state of Palestine, the UK before 2002, the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, even Norway. Probably a lot more.
I would have to disagree with that. For 19 years before 1967, Israel had no control at all over Gaza or J & S. And yet the Palestinian Arabs were still "awful neighbors." Interestingly, those areas were occupied by Egypt and Jordan. And yet the aggression was directed against the Jews.
Lebanon, the UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, don't know anything about them in this context but I believe it. I have no love for Islamic nations, I think their cultures and beliefs are toxic and regressive.
China, Uighurs? Agreed
the fantasy state of Palestine, don't understand you here. Like they keep the Jews out? Tentative agree but they're also kind of like the little brother with an unplugged controller in terms of being able to control... Anything
the UK before 2002, very curious about this one
Even Norway, very curious about this one
Yes.
Roughly between 1962 and 2002, people born in places like Hong Kong were not allowed to live and work in Great Britain.
People in Svalbard don't get Norwegian citizenship, even if born there.
Also Tibetans.
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I’m sorry, the fuck?
If this is some gag about the Commonwealth, or about not immediately giving every non-citizen a passport and a vote the moment they roll up on the shore but require a process and some show of commitment first, then
a) it is almost certainly wrong b) to the extent it is true it is massively tendentious and you know it b) it does not correspond to the situation between Israel and Gaza, which again you know perfectly well
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. I would like to see some proof, please.
Roughly between 1962 and 2002, people from places like Hong Kong were subject to British Rule but could not live and work in Great Britain - not without special permission.
That's a different question. The question is which countries are apartheid countries.
Well do you agree that from roughly 1962 to 2002, British Dependent Territory Citizens (e.g. people from Hong Kong) were not free to just live and work in Great Britain, that they needed special permission?
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You can call a tail a leg, but that don't make it so.
If you consider the West Bank part of Israel (see above), then there are Israeli Jews who are ALSO unable to travel to various parts of Israel.
The Jewish towns in the West Bank are totally integrated into Israel and function just like Israeli towns inside the "official" borders do.
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What would you call the WB then? It's obviously not a sovereign state, as it lacks... sovereignty.
I genuinely don't know what you're referring to here, but I'd love to know more?
It is occupied territory.
Israeli Jews are forbidden from entering Area A of the West Bank.
Okay so if I change my comment above to: "I would consider the West Bank to an occupied part of Israel. I don't really care about de jure "ownership" because Israel clearly control access to the West Bank and maintains a monopoly of force over it. "
I even said "I don't care about de jure ownership" and was focusing on effective control, which Israel clearly maintains over the area.
Why? I assume because there's a genuine fear of them getting lynched?
Idk if "the dominant power of the area doesn't let it's otherwise free citizens into that area because it's concerned they'll be mobbed by the people they're apartheid-ing" really proves its not apartheid.
I don't think anyone would have gone "oh in that case it's fine" if the south African government said "oh it's not apartheid, we don't let the whites into the ghettos either!"
No, it is not an occupied part of Israel; that would imply almost the opposite (e.g. South Lebanon is now an occupied part of Lebanon, not Israel). It is an occupied land for which no permanent sovereign exists, which is a strange state, certainly, but distinct from being part of Israel.
Sure okay, this is quite literally the least important part of any of my statements lol
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This is absurd. Hamas rules Gaza, and controls everything that happens to the people there that is not directly related to borders.
My city has a mayor, who gets to make lots of local decisions. The federal or state level government, at any point it wishes, can basically do whatever the fuck it wants to the city, no matter what the mayor thinks.
Yes there are laws that limit fed/state power over the city, and there would definitely be lots of lawsuits! But at the end of the day, the mayor only gets power because the higher levels of government allow them to have it, and they can take it away on a whim.
Hamas is the "mayor" here.
Sure, Israel obviously does not play a day to day role in Gaza. But "controlling the borders" is like... 95% of sovereignty. Whoever controls the borders of a place is quite literally the de facto owner of that place, regardless of the legal tricks they play to claim otherwise.
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Israel could work as an ethnostate. But they'd have to give up the Palestinian areas they control. If they'd turned over the West Bank and Gaza to the PLO in the 1990s they'd likely be much more of a stable normal country today.
Israel has repeatedly offered Gaza back to Egypt, and Egypt has always refused. They don't want millions of dysfunctional and violent Palestinians inside their borders any more than Lebanon did.
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I'm not sure what you mean by "Palestinian areas," but I think it's worth noting that Israel tried leaving Gaza and the result was a disaster. Given that there is very strong anti-Jewish and anti-Israel sentiment among Palestinian Arabs, I doubt that it's a matter of just picking the right organization to be in control.
That's why I said in the PLO 90s. Hamas throws a wrench in things, but it could still work many West Bank towns are under full Palestinian control, the PLO are not as willing to die as Hamas.
That's a problem too. It allows the more radical element to drive things.
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Yes, I'm aware. I'm extremely skeptical that would have worked given (1) the extreme anti-Jewish and anti-Israel sentiment among Palestinian Arabs; and (2) the widespread support for terrorism among the Palestinian Arabs.
In practice, that's not the case. The Israeli authorities enter from time to time to arrest certain people; if a troublemaker is known to come from a certain town, the Israeli authorities will put pressure on that town in various ways; and probably other things are done which aren't widely publicized.
If Israel just left J & S / WB to fester as was done with Gaza, I'm pretty confident that within a few years you'd have another Gaza. It's worth noting that to a large extent Hamas has enjoyed widespread popular support among Palestinian Arabs everywhere, not just in Gaza.
Optimistically, there's something of a chicken-and-egg problem here. Forty years down the line in the counterfactual where a two-state solution was implemented in the 90s, would young Palestinians grow up with such extreme hatred of Israel if they perceived it as simply a neighboring country, and not the oppressor controlling the land they themselves currently live on? I don't know that it would reduce Palestinians' anti-zionist sentiment by a wide enough margin but equally, it would be surprising if it didn't reduce it at all.
The primary motivator is anti-Semitism. When Jordan controlled J & S and Egypt controlled Gaza, the Palestinian Arabs living there focused their hatred on '47 Israel. In fact, the PLO made clear that it was NOT claiming those areas.
Sure, but I do think you might get fewer able-bodied young men volunteering to martyr themselves for the cause when the cause being sold to them by the terrorist recruiters is "I know things are fine around here, but there's all these disgusting enemies of the Prophet who hurt our ancestors over there, let's go attack them" as opposed to "you know how everything around here is shit? it's because of those hated infidels who are currently oppressing and bombing us, so let's kick them out of our rightful fatherland". Observably, stable, independent Muslim nations spend considerably less effort on trying to wipe Israel off the map than Hamas does, even if many of them still have that as one of their long-term goals.
I am pretty skeptical about that. ISIS was able to do quite a lot of recruiting in Western countries. Perhaps more in poor countries, but was that due to the wealth disparity or just ease of access?
It's not widely reported but Israel (and Western NGOs) have put a lot of effort into economic development among Palestinian Arabs, in part with the idea that this will lessen animosity along the lines you proposed. Has it worked? I'm skeptical, but of course there's really no way to know that there hasn't been SOME positive effect. Certainly it hasn't solved the problem.
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Israel is not giving up anything.
And being "normal country"? This was the dream of old school Zionists, who imagined "Belgium of the East", cozy Viennese coffee house in the desert of Middle East. Not going to happen.
Current and coming generations have another plans and another dreams.
You are totally right, but as a small country clinging to the coast highly integrated into the global economy they'll have a much harder time going it alone then the Soviets or Iranians. It doesn't seem very stable to me. But it also seems no Islamic power can push them out and also they have nukes. So who knows how it ends.
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