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I was following with interest the recent discussion here on the degenerate nature of hardcore anime fandom and I find that there are aspects to this that nobody mentioned. In this comment I'd like to call attention to one of these. Namely:
I propose the argument that feminist ideology has reached a level of cultural influence in the West sometime around 2008-2012 where unironic* depictions of conventionally attractive, sexually alluring, non-girlboss female characters have become taboo in the eyes of normie women**.
*Unironic in the sense that it's by no means done for the purpose of ironically conveying some politicized message about the sad reality of the male gaze, societal sexism etc.
**That is, women that are either lipstick feminists or conform to the norms of the (surely present) lipstick feminist women in their social circle. In other words, the big majority of women, or at least of young urban women.
Since the Japanese anime industry does not abide by these cultural norms, the consequence of this is that anime as a whole is increasingly suspect in the eyes of normie/NPC women, which has at least two consequences of its own. One: the male partners and/or friends of these women, who are usually cucky and normie-oriented betas, evidently adopt the same view, which contribute to its spread. Two: this provides an incentive to notice, thematize and even embellish the off-putting manifestations of anime fandom.
I'd make two more related observations as potential food for thought from this very forum.
@urquan has made a somewhat similar point before: resolute (male) attempts to counter-signal against the taboo on sexual display in a workplace setting are intensely off-putting to normie women. (The difference here is between intensely off-putting and, well, merely off-putting.)
This comment by @WhiningCoil also caught my attention:
Considering that the Berserk franchise contains excessive amounts of brutal violence, horror and gore, and as does Game of Thrones, plus not only "sexposition" but also explicit sex, rape, incest etc., I find it telling that it was a groping scene (which, it should be mentioned, was unironically accidental) that finally crossed the line in her eyes.
And finally a general point: this entire phenomenon has no female counterpart. That is, we see no similar widespread disapproval of (more or less) goonerbait cultural material directed at women. In fact, it appears to me that there is a general push to normalize it.
Yeah, "accidentally" put in there by the creators. That's the point; it's about as unironic as the porn clichés of "oops, my hot neighbour came out of the shower in only a towel and somehow got locked out of her apartment".
Why is there a groping scene in the show? For the male viewers to get their thrills. Which is fine, that's what these shows are about, but expecting women to watch it and go "nope, nothing to see here" is a bit much. I don't know if guys would be "this is unironic and accidental" about shows where the trope is that the hot male lead constantly ends up in nothing but a towel with some groping by the second male lead, but it's the distaff parallel (it would seem for cdramas the trope is "hot male lead in bath tub, some very light BDSM choking ensues"). This is unabashedly for the female gaze.
Okay, but... why?
Put it this way: you're entitled to dislike fan service. You're entitled to disdain the male gaze. You're entitled to not be interested in shows that exist to please men.
But you are arguing two contradictory things:
Like, if you genuinely believe that it's "fine" for some shows to featuring boobs and butts and groping and fan service, why is it "too much" to expect a woman to watch it without going off?
Now, if she was compelled/tricked/reluctantly dragged into watching it, or had no idea what sort of show it was and was enjoying it until the sudden fan service, okay, I can see some hard eye rolls, but I'm going to be honest, I don't think you (or most women) are "fine" with shows like that. You just sort of grudgingly tolerate their existence.
(FWIW, I have never seen Berserk and am not much into anime nowadays. Just sayin', as much as I dislike the seething hatred that sweats out of some of our He-Man Wimmin-Haters, they aren't completely wrong that a lot of media just gets outright snipped for the horrific crime of... being appealing to men.)
Okay, further explanation has demonstrated that that particular scene wasn't just about titillation. But it's the Battle Lingerie trope that is responsible for the eye-rolling. Some games etc. do put it in For The Guyz. And okay, we have to accept that. But it's not realistic, and it's not there for any reason other than "male sexuality is really easy to unlock, just boobs'n'butts". (The zeppelin boobs and impossibly chunky thighs are the turn off for women watching).
God bless Torchlight, lo these many years past now, where I played as a female character (can't remember if it was engineer or what) and mine eyes did widen and gaze aghast as I got a better piece of gear that was less coverage for my character. I remember swapping the gear on and off, and yep the stats for armour etc. got better and yep the battlekini got skimpier.
The corresponding male character was covered from goggles to bootsoles, so it was even sillier. So if I wanted to play the game, I played as a male character because yes, I know it's fantasy vidya games but there are some absurdities that just break immersion.
I'm not going to complain about guys liking the female characters in games to be zeppelin boobs running around the battlefield in high heels, but I'm also not going to pretend it's not what it is. Though let's hear it for gender-equitable armour!
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Maybe this is generalizing, but I suspect that the vast majority of women in committed relationships are turned off by their men showing sexual interest in other women.
Disagree; dread game is a PUA staple.
That doesn't mean a woman likes it. A thing might make a woman behave temporarily in a way you like but that does not mean that she is content and happy, nor does she like the thing that triggered the change.
Or is everyone interpreting "turned off" as literal sexual arousal and not the general "I hate this and want to turn my head from this, not look at it, feel disgusted by this" way?
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Offended and insulted, rather than necessarily turned off.
Turned off by their men showing sexual interest in other women in a low-status way, definitely. And slow-mo replay of the shower scene in an anime is as low-status as it gets.
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