Once upon a time, many ages ago, a race of Octopodes spread far and wide across the ocean. They expanded their reach not through the length or strength of their tentacles but by the brightness of their mind, for these Octopodes were the most gifted of all creatures beneath the waves, and neither fish nor whale could match them in wits.
One tribe, a stock exposed to the grueling and savage waters of the North Sea, grew even cleverer than the rest. These Octopodes banded together in a vast Kingdom where they made machines, powered by thermal energy from the ocean floor, to work for them. They built great cities made of reef and coral, where surface-scrapers stretched from the deepest and darkest trenches to the edge of the known world. They conquered North and South, East and West, and spread their molluscan monarchy over the globe. All marine life, and all other Octopodes, were cast down to become their chattel or cattle.
Like many of their kind, though, these Octopodes were semelparous – meaning their females reproduced once and died immediately postpartum. Few rejoiced at this fate, but even fewer questioned it: it was the way of life and the way things had always been and the order which the God of the Sea had set. Besides that, the female Octopodes were weaker and smaller than their male counterparts, and altogether dependent on them. Much like the water in which they swam, they never really gave it any thought.
However, one day, when the opulent and powerful Kingdom had reached a new height of opulence and power, the female Octopodes petitioned the King for redress. Many social issues had been solved through careful statecraft, they argued, yet there still remained the question of just compensation for semelparity. Surely the female Octopodes deserved greater recognition and freedom for this ardous service which they had rendered? A little equality, that could not be too much to ask given their contribution? The King was a reasonable octopus, and every reform proposed was backed by arguments founded on well-recognized principles of justice. He therefore gave his consent. Year by year the Octopodettes were emancipated from every social constraint that had once bound them and from every aspect of what they once were; and the Kingdom and its treasury became more of a husband to them than their own husbands ever were or could ever be.
Gradually and subtly, in a shift that caught many off-guard, the female Octopodes in the Kingdom stopped reproducing. ‘Why,’ they replied when questioned by dismayed suitors, ‘should we bear forth children in sorrow and pain? Would you if you were us? We are free now to choose our own fate. Who are you to question our choice?”
Some of the more simple-minded Octopodes were alarmed by this sentiment. ‘Shouldn’t we do something?’ they asked the King when he held court. ‘Clearly something has gone awry. At this rate, we’re headed for extinction!’ The King was unnerved by this warning, but his most elite Octopode experts, advisers whom he had come to hold in the highest of regards, were of a different mind.
‘That’s absurd!’ they rejoined. ‘It’s evidently impossible for a species to drive itself extinct through non-reproduction: the laws of evolution and demography forbid it. Our population might shrink for now, but in the long run the most fertile female Octopodes will outbreed their barren sisters. The daughters and sons of the fecund will then issue forth as a new generation of Octopodes more fertile than any before it. The future is bright!’
The supreme Octopode thinkers were, of course, quite right. There were indeed many Octopode children still born – born to the most insipid and least conscientious mothers, the select few so feeble in mind or lacking in impulse control that the prevention of their own misery was too challenging an intellectual goal. In a generation or two this subset swelled its numbers beyond count, overwhelming whatever elderly remnants of the smarter Octopode stock remained. The Kingdom, with its splendorous cities and meticulous order and marvelous technology, all of which had taken many centuries of effort to build, was lost to ignorance in three or four short decades; and the Age of the Octopodes came crashing down.
–
The descendants of these eight-armed overlords still roam the depths. They live much as any other marine animal, eking out a living as best they can. If you glimpse them from a distance it is exceedingly hard to tell them apart from any other mollusc. Yet look closely and you can spot a keen glint in their squinting eyes, like a spark of truth from a tale long lost – a spark in remembrance of a realm that once was.
Hence, I say
यः धर्मम् परित्यज्य श्रिसुखम्हितेच्छय स दुःखं गच्छेत् न संशयः अष्तबहुभर्तामुढयथा
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Notes -
It’s perhaps instructive to note that in The Doom That Came To Sarnath, which I take this story to be trying to evoke, the Sarnathians were actually being punished for their colonialist usurpation of the frog-people's home. You do have some sort of idea here with your connection between female rights and semelparity, but your handling of it is nothing more than a bland parody. Probably the situation should be presented as more of the twisted tragedy it is.
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I am curious about what this says. I have a suspicion it's politically-incorrect, which is fine but also makes me a bit nervous about putting it into Google Translate.
It's a pastiche referencing the classic Indian Sanskrit Fable-Collection Hitopadesha (as is the entire fable itself). All fables in the Hitopadesha end with the narrator repeating a verse (often written in shloka metre) which summarizes the narrator's understanding of the tale's main moral or lesson.
My Sanskrit is very far from perfect so this is a comically rough verse: I think in hindsight श्रिसुखम्हितेच्छय should be in the ablative rather than the dative-of-purpose case, I haven't even tried to give it in the correct metre, and I've likely made other mistakes an expert could point out with ease. A rough translation is as follows:
यः = who
धर्मम् = dharma, duty, cosmic order
परित्यज्य = having abandoned/forsaken
श्रिसुखम्हितेच्छय = woman-benefit-desiring
स = he
दुःखं = dukham, pain, suffering, unhappy, ruin
गच्छेत् = will go towards/become/achieve [in Sanskrit, "go towards" can also mean "become" or "achieve" depending on context]
न संशयः = without a doubt
अष्तबहुभर्तामुढयथा = just like the foolish eight-armed [Octopode] lords
In a free translation to English prioritizing vibe and feel over accuracy, I'd give it as follows:
Whoever abandons dharma for women has no doubt gone astray as the foolish Octopode Kings once did in their day
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As a short story and a cautionary tale, this is trite and twee. Just quote Kipling and be done with it.
As a metaphor, it's a blunt cudgel with no cleverness or subtlety or anything really worth thinking over. Obvious message is obvious -- yes, let us not be octopodes and do stupid things like trying to improve the lot of those who rightfully suffer as nature intended. Oh wait, that's already been done better too.
What's truly terrible is that now has me thinking about Octopode society 😁
How long do these Octopodes live? If we take real world deep sea octopus species, it could be 10 years (possibly, though not probably, anywhere up to 16-18 years). Other octopus species live anywhere from eighteen months to five years, so let's go with a decade lifespan.
Next thing is, when do Octopodes become sexually mature? This is very relevant to the Octopodettes, because if they are going to mate once, get pregnant, lay eggs, and die, then their life span depends on how early in Octopode society they are considered mature enough to marry and have spawn. Again, real world examples of giant octopus species would be around 2 to 3 years.
If the male Octopodes survive their mates and have a longer lifespan, we could see a society developing along Ancient Roman lines of "thirty year old man marries twelve year old girl". That wasn't the rule, but men tended to marry later because they were building their careers etc.
I think you can see that if Octopodettes reproduce once and die, then the gender ratios are going to get skewed within a few generations. I'm not smart enough to run the maths, but think about it: we start off with 100 Octies, 50 male and 50 female. The females mate, reproduce, and die. The males survive. The population has increased to 50+ however many hatchlings survive (for the sake of simplicity, let's say every clutch of eggs is sized 50, divided neatly between males and females) - clutch sizes can be "50 to upwards of 400,000 eggs at a time in a single reproductive cycle, depending heavily on the species."
Next generation, once they become sexually mature, we have the original 50 males plus the (for the sake of simplicity) 100 newly mature males and 100 newly mature females. Now you have 150 males competing to mate with the females.
Rinse and repeat for the next generation, you see where this is going?
This would explain how this happens:
Of course, because now you have a surplus population of young male Octies with little to no chance of obtaining a mate and reproducing themselves. In human society, we're used to talking about how the aggression of young, unmarried males who cannot hope to successfully compete for mates has to be channelled, and war (especially aggressive, expansionist war) is one way of doing that. Can our Octies mate with other Octie species? War brides in that case! If they can't, then perhaps success in war is one way of rising up the ranks and getting enough status to be considered in with a chance for an Octopodette (once the older Octie males are now grandpas and too old to mate or dead).
Hey, looks like we've re-invented the patriarchy! and hierarchical society! Older, high-status males send the young/lower-ranking Octie males out to fight their wars, while hogging the females for themselves. Um, maybe we've also re-invented the Theban League and obligate homosexuality? Males that don't seek out females because they just ain't interested may or may not have an advantage. They certainly have a better chance of booty time than their straight but sometimes facultatively homosexual brothers.
Something will have to give, and unless the Octie King wants to look down the barrel of the Octo(ber)pode Revolution, then...
... it's the Sexual Revolution.
It is now in the interest of the Octopodes, not the Octopodettes, to break tradition. The invention of contraception and its widespread adoption will do work here. Now you can have sex with your female mate/spouse (roofies aside) multiple times! She can live as long as you do! Just so long as you don't knock her up which will be fatal (literally).
Imagine that: as much sex as you want (or that she will tolerate) for as long as you want! The dream of all the single male Octies!
Even better is if you break the restrictions around "mating is for marriage". When extra-marital sex becomes socially acceptable, when Octopodettes can have boyfriends (instead of being married to the mate of their father's choice like The Good Old Traditional Days) and when sex does not automatically mean reproduction, then you - single male Octie - have a much better chance of getting your ashes hauled at least once in your life. You do not want the tradwife Octopodette, she's no good to you because you have little chance of ever getting one. You want the Sexually Liberated, Empowered, Feminist Octopodette who thinks she is sticking it to The Man by sleeping around. In fact, getting your hectocotylus into one of those good-time Octopodettes may well increase your chances of reproduction, when she does decide it's time to do the whole egg-laying thing:
Octopus sex is fascinating, and slightly wince-inducing. It's often not much fun for the females, but the males are not having swinging bachelor fun times either:
Hence the roofies:
The blue-lined octopus link really makes me wonder how fucked-up the Octopodes' romance novels would be. What I really wonder, though, is how even an advanced technological society would deal with caring for thousands of plankton-sized infants drifting on the currents until they eat enough or get eaten. There would presumably be Octopode religious sects and Octo-EAs obsessing over how to get birthing nets out there, and Octopode Ehrlichs predicting terrible doom if they were to succeed and increase the population a thousandfold in a generation.
Their version of “bad end” snuff films would involve the mother miraculously surviving and staying involved in the kids’ lives
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Thinking about it further, traditional Octopode society only functions (somewhat) peacefully if polyandry is the rule. Tradwife Octopodette is married off as soon as, or as shortly after as possible, she becomes sexually mature. But that's not the end of it! This is her primary mate, the suitable one both families agree is stable and bringing a good bride-price with him, able to provide a home for her and the hatchlings (when they come). But they're not coming just yet, as (like the blue-ringed octopus) Octopodette can store spermatophores. Over the course of the next couple of years, she takes other husbands. If she wants to marry for love or just have a toy boy as she gets older, sure! Eventually, when she is facing "reproduce now or lose the chance forever" timing, she uses all those stored spermatophores to fertilise her eggs, lays them, guards them, and dies. Her relicts now raise the hatchlings jointly and this improves survival rates for the young, since now they have homes and co-parents instead of being left to the mercy of predation and environmental stresses. Every Octopode has at least a chance of being mated, so there is much less social discontent around "the old guys are taking all the women".
Draupadi is the model for the virtuous tradwife Octopodette, with her five husbands representing the five excellences she wanted in one man (not possible) 😁
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Clearly, you need to collaborate with @DoktorGlas and turn this into a proper novel.
(Plug here for Adrian Tchaikovsky's Children of Ruin, a great uplifted-octopi story, though I do find the uplifted spiders from book one, Children of Time, more interesting.)
If I could write! Seriously, though, leaving out the "women - aren't they terrible?" parts, it could be very interesting as worldbuilding for "suppose all our talk of intelligent octopi did in fact go somewhere, and they used their tentacles to start building things, how would they overcome the difficulties of being underwater? how would they structure their society, when an entire generation dies after producing the new one?"
You'd have to have a guild or religious order for that last one; Octopodette priestesses, sworn to holy celibacy, living an entire decade - or even more years! - passing on the accumulated and hard-won wisdom and knowledge of their society. Eunuch(? removal of the optic gland seems to increase lifespan) Octopodes, in high status government positions, guiding and guarding the institutions of governance. Confucianism amongst the molluscs?
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This is not a kind or constructive comment imo
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That's an interesting strategy, though. How did the Octopodes grow their population? Because at first glance, either they need to produce tons of little Octopode hatchlings at one go (and who takes care of baby Octies? if we're talking about intelligent, technologically advanced species, 'oh we just let them fend for themselves in the wild and the survivors grow up' won't work; are all the daddy Octies childminding their brood of fifty hatchlings?) or it's a very skewed gender ratio where females outnumber males by a huge margin (say out of ten Octies, nine are female to one male).
I see that it works in nature, but not with intelligent species. And it generally seems to be both sexes die after spawning, or the males die off while females sometimes survive to return and spawn again:
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Hang on, didn't we read something like this before? Marine species (crabs or something) on a tidal rock?
I don't get the obsession with marine species and 'we need to get women pregnant until they literally die' but go Mother Hydra and Father Dagon I guess?
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This has potential but as @netstack says is under-explained -- too short. Explain how the kingdom becomes a stand-in husband to the octopodettes, and why this in particular makes them not want to have kids. Also, if you want this to be seen as a bad fate, perhaps some sympathy-triggering descriptions of the grueling, simple life of a modern octopus post-Fall would contrast well with the splendour of the golden age (also not really described).
Then a description of "But I personally have six wives and twenty kids (not counting the current pregnancies) that I fully support in a middle to upper middle class style, I'm fighting the TFR rate collapse with all I have, join my army of lovers!" would be more sympathy-triggering than "Me? Married? Horde of squalling brats? Over my dead body, but I think women should have no choice about getting knocked-up. Just don't ask me to do it, I want to spend my money and time on my toys and leisure activities" just-so stories.
EDIT:
Well, lessee:
Sure, because Husbando expects to only be Husbando to Wifey Number One until he knocks her up. Then he's a merry widower after she pops her clogs having laid the eggs and moves on to Wifies Numbers Two to Unlimited, as Bluebeard as Bluebeard can be, unless he refrains from knocking up a Wifey and thus having a marriage that lasts longer than one year.
I think in that situation, State Husband that is involved with Octopodette for more than one year, as long as she survives in fact, is more of a husband to the Octopodette than Husbando 😁
Fascinatingly, it appears that in nature, this is not how it works for octopi, and both parents pop their clogs after doing their reproductive duty to the species:
It seems female octopi stand guard over their eggs and hatchlings, but stop eating during this period and eventually starve to death. The males just seem to die after mating.
Gosh, I really learned a heck of a lot more about octopus reproduction than I ever thought I would want to!
I want a horde of squalling brats. I would sacrifice a lot to have a horde of squalling brats.
If you know some women who also want a horde of squalling brats and would actually date me, please, give me their contact info.
I don't unfortunately, but I hope you do find a compatible person and have a brood of squalling (but not too squalling) offspring to annoy and delight you over the years!
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I understand this topic gets you upset but the use of sneertalk can make it hard to understand your points a lot of the time. I can't follow the Husbando-Wifey train of thought here with the pseudo-Hulk speak. I think this may be a big cause of the bad reception you've gotten on other posts you've made on this topic in the past.
Also on this topic, you tend to post like 2 or 3 separate comments with different bon mots you've thought of. I think it'd be easier for everyone if you collected your thoughts and posted one big comment so we could see it all in one place.
My train of thought has many cars, they can't all be corralled into one big car.
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Meh. Lovecraft did it better. 0HP Lovecraft also did it better.
There’s not even an obvious connection between giving
womenoctopus the vote and, uh, erasing all social constraints. You just sort of import the talking point.Then when everything goes to shit, it’s taken for granted that preserving the
whiteNorth Sea race is totally worth killing thewomenfemales. Why? Is the right to life, to self-determination, actually worth less than the need to control future generations?3/10, maybe stick to reporting on your hobbyhorse.
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