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Notes -
Legitimacy & Israel
What is it that makes a state legitimate? It's amazing to me how many people simply take any existing state as legitimate, without asking whether it ought to be seen as legitimate or not. States commit horrific acts of violence and coercion daily, so this is an important question. How can we know whether such a state is actually justified in committing such blatantly awful acts?
There are, I think, at first appearance two popular theories of this: might makes right, and democratic moralism. The former theory is amoral, and the latter is moralistic. In practice, however, I think these are in fact merely two faces of the same coin.
On the one hand, the might-makes-right people say that the state is self-justifying. It exists, it has might, therefore obey it, end of discussion. This is unsatisfying in that it essentially dodges the topic of discussion. As such it is not really a valid answer to the question of legitimacy; rather it implicitly denies that there is any question to be had at all. Might makes right might be a good starting point for a science of state, which investigates how, in human history, states have emerged and become mighty, but it is inappropriate for the normative question that is the question of legitimacy (what type of state should there be?).
Now on the other hand the democratists say that the state is justified when it is popular. But why should that be? If you assume, empirically, that people have different levels of moral aptitude, then popularity immediately appears to be a formula to craft a wicked state. The only deeper justification is that popularity probably correlates with mightiness. But this is just a thin veneer over the first position.
So said Thrasymachus:
In the Gorgias, Socrates makes the link to democracy explicit, and Callicles agrees:
But Callicles then points out the absurdity of democracy:
I agree, rather, with Socrates (and Plato?) that the aristocratic rule by virtue is more just than the democracy. And likewise the most legitimate state is the state of Reason (or what was called philosophy). I believe in modern times, Francis Galton and Friedrich Nietzsche have shown us the way to establish a legitimate state.
Galton:
Now this brings me to Israel. Israel is a recent example of state foundation, by which I mean the art of creating a new state. It was founded in 1948 by a population made up largely of recent immigrants; for well over a thousand years Jews had been but a small minority in the region; for nearly two thousand there was no Jewish state.
Now, what kind of state is Israel? Obviously, it is Jewish. But it is also democratic. And it seems to premise its existence on the dwelling of the Jewish immigrants in the region. What inferences can we make here regarding probable hypotheses in the science of state? For one, we can guess that Israel and states like it depend on the influx of people into its vicinity for its sustenance. In other words Israel is predicated on the mass immigration of aliyah; the Jewish population grew from about 25,000 in the 1880s to about 630,000 by 1948, mostly through immigration. It is merely, then, the armed and coercive organisation of that population.
What sort of just foundation is that? Consider this: when one man declares himself sovereign, he is a laughing stock, like an ape. When a few men do it, they are criminals; yet when many men do it, I am supposed to profess that they are just?
I would prefer to keep my reason and see all such founders, not only Israel's, as laughing-stocks and criminals. Thus, I see Israel as the farce of state foundation. For before Israel we knew the way to the just state; yet it was the Torah and its aliyah which led to the foundation of Israel, a state not unlike all previous states, and all of its rivals in the region. There is nothing new or elevated about Israel. What is the higher purpose?
And if Israel is farce, who then is the tragedy? One does not have to look far; it is Israel's greatest ally, or should I say its uncle, old Samuel. For the United States was founded on philosophy, it was founded on higher ideals. But its ideals were flawed, because its philosophers were flawed, and so were its people. It started as an oligarchy, that saw itself as an aristocracy, and it never knew true justice. As Plato would predict, it degenerated to a democracy, and lost most of what apprehension of virtue it had, and now many say it is on the road to tyranny.
Imagine what could be done with North America if it were not already settled! That is the tragedy. And the farce is all the effort put in to crowding out the Muslims in Palestine, for nothing higher at all. The situation is so dire that people dream of settling Mars, a desert with no water and no breathable air, because at least it is not yet scourged by a state. Galton had the same dream:
Some will say all of this is silly because it is impossible. But we know true aliyah is not impossible; Galton showed us that much. If Israel were impossible, it would not be because of the Jews. It would be because of the gentiles. So too, if true Israel is impossible, it is because the true gentiles block the true aliyah of the true Jews. (Sozusagen). Ask yourself, are you a Jew or a Gentile? Is it just for the gentiles to stop the Jews? And how should Jews feel, if they are stopped?
To be plain, since the above is metaphor (which I think has value in itself): I am not talking about actual Jews or gentiles. Zionism showed that a scattered people can migrate and found a state within a few decades; Galton showed what kind of state would be worth founding. By «true Israel» I mean a state founded on reason and on Galton's eugenics rather than on scripture. By «true aliyah» I mean the migration of the people who want such a state to a place where they can found it. By «true Jews» I mean those founders, and by «true gentiles» the existing states and peoples who would stop them. So the question I am asking is: would it be just for existing states to block the founding of a better one, and would its founders be wronged if they were blocked?
State legitimacy should be looked at more concretely.
Firstly, there's the internal element. The essence of Japan can be the Yamato warrior, One Hundred Million With One Spirit - or it can be something else, isolation and moralism. Democratic moralism is just one kind of ideal that upholds state legitimacy. It could also be revolutionary Maoism or Rome's destiny to rule the world or the divine right of a dynasty to rule many peoples. It could be about being sorry for racism against black people, that could be the essence of a state. These ideas aren't just abstract, they guide how the nation and state sees itself and how the state behaves on the ground. What does the army do, who makes up the elite class, how is the government run, who is taxed and who gets sinecures? These are all contested (someone gains and someone loses) and need legitimacy/ideology behind them to explain and justify. The whole purpose of legitimacy is to legitimize some concrete action.
And there's the external element, the delegitimizing factor. The Iranian regime is illegitimate because they impoverish their own people to make missiles and fund terrorism. (When the Arabs do that, they're called proxies rather than terrorists until they go rogue). All non-democracies are illegitimate to a certain extent and even some of the democracies can be 'backsliding.' It's a way of viewing the world that has material results in that they end up getting attacked, usually by the US. The West is illegitimate because they're satanic degenerates who don't know the difference between men and women and so opposing them is justified despite the costs... The true reason might be something else but delegitimizing helps justify some kind of action.
I think it's always better to ground discussions like this in what's actually happening on the ground, or a hypothetical example.
Are you saying that there should be a eugenic state founded on Mars? Well OK but it seems a bit impractical. Mars is a long way away.
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It seems to me that you are conflating a few aspects of statecraft and loading them all onto the term of "legitimacy." At first, you discuss theories of where the authority of a state comes from. As in, what makes a state a state, as opposed to a voluntary federation or some other form of organization. You correctly identify the state as the locus of organized power in a region, with both the state's capacity for coordinated action ("might") and the consent of the governed as relevant factors of a state's ability to efficiently operate. States have laws, and part of what separates a good state from a failed state is its ability to enforce said laws and promote whatever its model of an ideal society is.
However, you also discuss matters of moral appropriateness, and, to me, this seems entirely divorced from the concept of what a state is. In my view, it does not matter the ideals upon which a state is founded - a bunch of channers could come together and make Kekistan and it would have just as much legitimacy as Indonesia. It would be younger, with less of a felt legitimacy due to its age, but it would be, definitionally, a state.
No, you do not need to profess that they "are" just. Perhaps there are moral questions about the means by which a state was founded or about the morals of its current actions. However, there is nothing morally relevant about the mere existence of a state qua state. As a practical matter, though, it is in your interest to recognize them as a state, as a large group of people declaring themselves sovereign and self-governing is a nearly tautological definition of what a state actually is. The difference between a state that is a laughingstock and a state that is broadly recognized has to do with history, cultural associations, and, as you rightly identify, both its might and the consent of the governed. The moral status of a state, its actions, and the philosophical lodestone of the state are secondary considerations. A state can be a colonial state, a "rogue" state, a morally repugnant state, but a state nonetheless. Native Americans do not dispute the fact that America is a state even if it was founded by purging their communities.
In other words, it seems appropriate to me to discuss whether or not a state's actions are just, but the notion of whether a state exists or not has little moral relevance. It is purely a matter of practicality. I'm reminded of this clip - Israel does exist.
It is neither just nor unjust to block the founding of a state. That question requires more specifics: why is the new state being created? By what means is the new state claiming territory and establishing itself? Are there geopolitical impacts?
If Australia wants to split into East Australia and West Australia, on its face there is no reason for that to be morally relevant. However, if West Australia proclaims that once founded, the military will kill everyone under 5'0" to make a eugenic superstate, that becomes morally relevant, and the decision to intervene in the state's existence is downstream of that effect. Silly example, but I think you get me.
This may be a nit, but, if that's consent, then let Ghislaine Maxwell go. I much prefer to say popularity, or maybe acquiescence.
Again a nit, but, functional or working, not good.
Maybe these are not nits. When all we have are words, isn't it important to use the right ones? As I said elsewhere, it seems like modern « philosophy » is an absolute minefield when it comes to little blemishes like these. It adds up to a totally false picture.
I implied it is quite divorced, yes.
I use legitimacy as a moral term. I think you mean existence. States can exist, but be illegitimate (or rather they can be more or less legitimate on a continuum.)
I think you have misread me to a great degree. Nowhere did I say that illegitimate states do not exist. Specifically, did you miss this line:
Here I clearly draw the distinction that you are grasping at.
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At the risk of looking like I've spent too much time watching Europa Universalis 4 gameplay, I will point out a third theory, diplomatic to go with your military and administrative: a country is legitimate in proportion to its recognition as legitimate by the "international community" of other countries (constitutive theory of statehood). A formerly legitimate country that makes too many other countries angry (e. g., by violating international law with aggressive wars) can become illegitimate.
Declarative theory and consent of the governed, but not constitutive theory: A government loved by its people but not recognized by other countries (Somaliland, revolutionary France)
Declarative theory and constitutive theory, but not consent of the governed: A tyrannical government whose internal atrocities other governments refrain from condemning
Consent of the governed and constitutive theory, but not declarative theory: A government in exile still loved by its people and still acknowledged as the rightful ruler by the international community even though it controls nothing
I reject that as a normative theory of state, however it is clear it is a useful component for a science of state. Yes, an unrecognized state will have certain issues a recognized one will not have. However, its recognition has no causal influence on its just foundation (because assigning worth to the opinions of unjust states is the same as assigning worth to the opinions of unjust men. it is the same as democracy).
It's hard to know what to say about this phrasing. On its face it seems to demand unanimous consent. It's hard to know what that should mean for war and people of poor character. If it is taken to mean less than unanimous consent then it is « democratic moralism » wearing a mask. That it feels the need to wear such a mask, I think, indicates something about the correctness of the idea. Too many modern philosophical terms appear to wear masks like this, which is why I look down on almost every name in that article as beneath reading. I think it would stunt the discussion to lower it to the level of comparing and contrasting the « theories » of Locke and Hobbes the « philosophers ».
As an aside, maybe it means something that the first reference in that article is to Tertullian, whose theology I harshly criticized in my last post. Maybe those things are linked?
Before this discussion goes any further, what would be your response to Herodotus?
In the parable of the Persian king, asked the Greeks what sum they would take to eat their dead fathers, they reacted in horror. To the Callatiae, he asked what they would do to burn their dead, and they similarly reacted in disgust. To which the historian reaches the conclusion that custom (nomos) is supreme, the king of all things.
Justice, it seems to me, is the effect of a body of custom. And if we cannot come to a consensus of custom, then every nation is an island in an sea of barbarism, and we'd best be suited to wipe each other out. So that is the compromise: and why an unjust state's opinions are just as valid as a just one's, because everyone believes that their custom is best. (Yes, even the liberal self-critical postmodernist one.) The least common denominator is the only thing that can survive, which seems to be a poor way to assess the validity of states. But without a universal measure of justice, what else can be done?
Custom is simply democracy. If Socrates, Plato, or Henry Thompson say in reason that burning the dead is good, then it is good.
The universal measure, I think, exists. It is called λόγος. This is the premise of Plato's Republic and without it I think it is true that all you can do is a type of democracy.
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From what I understand, a lot of those Jews were displaced persons who were sent there after World War II. Another big chunk were refugees who were chased out of countries like Iraq, Yemen, etc.
I'm not sure how this plays into your standards of justice, but I do think it's worth noting.
I think you need to clarify what you mean by "they" here. I mean, let's suppose that the initial founding of Israel in 1948 was unjust by some standard. Does that mean that the Israel of 2026 is illegitimate? That Israel is tainted forever?
Can you give a few examples of states which meet this higher purpose standard?
As a point of information, it's worth noting that (1) there has always been a significant Christian Arab population alongside the Muslim Arab population, at least until recently until the Christians started getting chased out in large numbers; and (2) a lot of the Palestinian Arabs are the descendants of Arabs who migrated internally within the Ottoman Empire in the 19th and early 20th centuries from places like what are now Egypt, Lebanon, and Syria. That's why it's common for Palestinian Arabs to have names like "Masri" which means Egypt.
If there were a Jewish colony on Mars which eventually became successful and prosperous, you can bet that there would be a lot of outrage over it. People would accuse the Jews of invading and seizing land which should be the common property of all mankind.
It doesn't play in at all, because I'm talking about setting a state on something higher than Jewish ethnicity. And that aside, if they were refugees, then they did the equivalent of Syrian refugees setting up a Caliphate in Europe.
Of course not, it's the ship of Theseus. However, the question of whether Israel is really still Israel is one for the next century, given that Netanyahu is a single year younger than the state he leads.
Okay, read it as the Arabs in Palestine, their religion doesn't matter to me.
This also doesn't matter to me. I didn't say Israel is uniquely evil, in fact. I implied it's mundane. The farce is that an amazing effort has gone into establishing a mundane state, one that is not morally better than the Muslims living there before.
I doubt they would be piqued for the same reason as me, but for me it is the issue of, it is a waste of scarce land that it should go to a vanity state for a micro-ethnicity that failed to have a state for 2000 years.
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Everything you've said about how Israel is an illegitimate colonizing power is also true of the US and Canada. You're surely aware of that. What the Arab revisionists say about "Is-not-real" is what a lot indigenous activists say about "Turtle Island." The only real difference is time and practicality - Arabs still believe if they get enough of the world to sympathize with them, they can destroy Israel, while even the most radical Native groups don't believe in their wildest dreams that they can expel white people from North America. Your straw men aside (hardly anyone literally defends "might makes right" as a principal, and democratists are quite aware of the failure mods of governing by popular sentiment, which is why the Founding Fathers went to great lengths to try to prevent that), yes, the reality is that a country has historical inertia. Many countries began as colonizing powers, as foreign invaders, with expulsion or subjugation of the previous inhabitants. Even accepting that narrative about Israel as true (and at best, it's a half-truth), once a country is established, you're not going to intellectually masturbate your way into delegitimizing it.
Do indigenous activist even want to expel white people from North America and return to governance under various native policies, like in the sense of they rub a lamp and have any three wishes, would they use them for that? It seems to me they just want free shit.
@Amadan @Hydroactelyene
Not a magic lamp, Jesus Christ himself, as part of the apocalyptic End of Days. That was the basic principle of the Ghost Dance in back 1891. In the history books they always edit that famous picture of Sitting Bull to cut out the giant crucifix around his neck.
Later American Indian radicals like AIM were mostly protesting the fact that the reservations were being run like South American banana republics, complete with death squads backed by US glowies.
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I did not say it was not so.
IIRC I have had some on this forum. Thrasymachus is an ancient example, he was an intelligent man and I take his position in the Republic as actual.
I feel that your response would be more appropriate had I written a much more vulgar text about Israel in particular, and the plight of the pitiable and sympathetic Arabs underneath the boot of the settler colonial power, and so on. I did not write that, that is not what I mean by what I wrote, yet it seems you projected what I wrote onto that thought-space (as in linear algebra).
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