naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
12697 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Amadan
"I would put a screwdriver through your eyeballs if I could"
jewdefender 6mo ago
Gonna drop a note here for transparency. This is not an official warning to @jewdefender, since you aren't really breaking any rules here (yet), but I want you (and your friends) to understand something:
I see you.
What do I mean by that? You got reported as follows: "hey fellow kids those white nationalists (which I'm totally not) are so wrong, aren't they?"
Which I found amusing and insightful because it is exactly what I thought the moment this new "jewdefender" alt started posting.
Dude. I am not fooled. I was never fooled. We let you do this because, well, Zorba doesn't want us witch-hunting and considers false positives worse than false negatives, and I mostly agree, and even a transparent alt can post interesting content. So fine, we'll let you keep wearing the mask until it slips. And probably even then, because as we keep pointing out, it's not being "outside the Overton Window" that gets people in trouble, it's being obnoxious, disingenuous, or belligerent about it. (Right now you're only one of those.)
But for all the people who report and DM me asking why we let an obvious troll troll, well, because. But just because we don't play whack-a-mole doesn't mean we're stupid. Just wanted you to know this.
You are comically well informed about Nazi's and anti-Jewish groups. It is not typical to be very well informed about people you disagree with. It happens only in a few circumstances. If the people you disagree with have saturated the media, and you can't help but know their positions, faces, and strongholds. Almost anyone that is politically aware knows the standard positions of the Republican and Democratic parties. But to know the names, articles, and websites of the Greens, Libertarians, or Communists, it usually means you are one of them.
You pattern match the behavior of people with forbidden views. You delete all your old posts. You have an isolated account that only deals on this single topic and you never say anything personally identifiable. That is not the behavior of someone unafraid to have their posts connected with a real identity. And I don't buy the "I'm afraid I will be targetted by violent Nazis for the things I say." You barely say anything controversial against them, at most you basically say "I disagree with them". But nearly everyone does. So if they wanted to go violently kill people who disagree with them, they could just walk into any public place. If they wanted to go after a powerful target, it wouldn't be you, it would be an actual politician or business person.
You platform Nazi positions. You go and read their stuff and then share it here. I can't describe how much of a disconnect that is with most "anti-nazis". As a forum and formerly a subreddit, our main complaint from people has always been that we provide a platform for real Nazis. The best way to describe how weird this is: we find it far more plausible that you are an actual Nazi, then you are an anti-nazi that wants to platform their views. Nazis are rare enough to begin with, the fact that we have two here is probably mostly a result of them being bounced off of just about every other online non-nazi forum out there.
To other readers this might beg the question 'why are you telling them all the signs that they are a troll'. In short, I'd like better quality trolls. To expand on that, this is a discussion forum that benefits from unique viewpoints. Its a place for people to work through ideas and sometimes current events with those that they strongly disagree. A good user brings good discussion and has interesting views. A perfectly disguised troll brings good discussion and has interesting views. The only difference in the amount of good they bring is that the good user might actually be enjoying their experience, a perfectly disguised troll is ... well they might be enjoying their time too, so maybe there is no difference. At worst they are just wasting their own time.
An imperfect troll that sits in the uncanny valley of belief systems, as you do, kinda breaks the illusion for everyone. They think "maybe this user is just uniquely bad at disguising their true viewpoints, and all the weird people I thought I was talking to are all fakes".
Oh for fuck’s sake, he’s still deleting his posts? Why do you keep tolerating this? Aside from the damage to the readability of the sub, it leaves no doubt as to who he is, there is no meaningful chance of a false positive here.
Do new users know not to delete posts? I had assumed JewDefender was someone financially / personally invested in, well, defending Jews on online forums, much like we had that one user who coincidentally would post whenever a certain Eastern European nation came up. In this case, deleting old irrelevant posts hardens their identity. I assume this happens not infrequently in online discourse. For some reason themotte comes in really high on google search results when you plug in a phrase of someone’s post. If this is case, which is mere conjecture and not accusation, I’m personally fine with it provided they make good arguments and don’t spam.
I’m not going to waste my time presenting the false flag case again. I’ve done it enough previous times, the mods have done it in this very thread. It’s absolutely beyond doubt, but it doesn’t matter. Just ban him for deleting. Whatever he is, he will then make another alt, and at least this one won’t delete. Small mercies.
Amadan
"I would put a screwdriver through your eyeballs if I could"
jewdefender 6mo ago
I'll concede there is a small chance I'm wrong. I doubt it, but as I said, you aren't going to be banned for pretending to be a "jewdefender" while repeatedly posting white nationalist links and arguments supposedly for the purposes of refuting them. If you are who you claim to be, then no harm, no foul.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Gonna drop a note here for transparency. This is not an official warning to @jewdefender, since you aren't really breaking any rules here (yet), but I want you (and your friends) to understand something:
I see you.
What do I mean by that? You got reported as follows: "hey fellow kids those white nationalists (which I'm totally not) are so wrong, aren't they?"
Which I found amusing and insightful because it is exactly what I thought the moment this new "jewdefender" alt started posting.
Dude. I am not fooled. I was never fooled. We let you do this because, well, Zorba doesn't want us witch-hunting and considers false positives worse than false negatives, and I mostly agree, and even a transparent alt can post interesting content. So fine, we'll let you keep wearing the mask until it slips. And probably even then, because as we keep pointing out, it's not being "outside the Overton Window" that gets people in trouble, it's being obnoxious, disingenuous, or belligerent about it. (Right now you're only one of those.)
But for all the people who report and DM me asking why we let an obvious troll troll, well, because. But just because we don't play whack-a-mole doesn't mean we're stupid. Just wanted you to know this.
I think I'm also against being trigger happy with bans, but how about an unremovable "suspected alt" flair?
More options
Context Copy link
To other readers this might beg the question 'why are you telling them all the signs that they are a troll'. In short, I'd like better quality trolls. To expand on that, this is a discussion forum that benefits from unique viewpoints. Its a place for people to work through ideas and sometimes current events with those that they strongly disagree. A good user brings good discussion and has interesting views. A perfectly disguised troll brings good discussion and has interesting views. The only difference in the amount of good they bring is that the good user might actually be enjoying their experience, a perfectly disguised troll is ... well they might be enjoying their time too, so maybe there is no difference. At worst they are just wasting their own time.
An imperfect troll that sits in the uncanny valley of belief systems, as you do, kinda breaks the illusion for everyone. They think "maybe this user is just uniquely bad at disguising their true viewpoints, and all the weird people I thought I was talking to are all fakes".
Not taking a stance on who this guy is but your first point seems like a line many posters here would cross in good faith.
More options
Context Copy link
Oh for fuck’s sake, he’s still deleting his posts? Why do you keep tolerating this? Aside from the damage to the readability of the sub, it leaves no doubt as to who he is, there is no meaningful chance of a false positive here.
Do new users know not to delete posts? I had assumed JewDefender was someone financially / personally invested in, well, defending Jews on online forums, much like we had that one user who coincidentally would post whenever a certain Eastern European nation came up. In this case, deleting old irrelevant posts hardens their identity. I assume this happens not infrequently in online discourse. For some reason themotte comes in really high on google search results when you plug in a phrase of someone’s post. If this is case, which is mere conjecture and not accusation, I’m personally fine with it provided they make good arguments and don’t spam.
He doesn’t make good arguments and he spams.
I’m not going to waste my time presenting the false flag case again. I’ve done it enough previous times, the mods have done it in this very thread. It’s absolutely beyond doubt, but it doesn’t matter. Just ban him for deleting. Whatever he is, he will then make another alt, and at least this one won’t delete. Small mercies.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It’s always been the same person, but the mods are reluctant to take a hard line. Anyway, it is what it is.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'll concede there is a small chance I'm wrong. I doubt it, but as I said, you aren't going to be banned for pretending to be a "jewdefender" while repeatedly posting white nationalist links and arguments supposedly for the purposes of refuting them. If you are who you claim to be, then no harm, no foul.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link