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PaperclipPerfector  24d ago (text post)   2796 thread views

Friday Fun Thread for April 12, 2024

Be advised: this thread is not for serious in-depth discussion of weighty topics (we have a link for that), this thread is not for anything Culture War related. This thread is for Fun. You got jokes? Share 'em. You got silly questions? Ask 'em.

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While this might be jumping the gun a bit, since my last two learners licenses expired as I was simply too busy with exams to sit for my driving exam, I need a car in the UK.

Semi-urban Scotland isn't really renowned for its public transport as far as I'm aware, and the NHS expects me to show up promptly in the unlikely event a CT1 shrink is needed for an emergency.

I'll be earning about £44k for the first year, and given that I so far have been rather scrupulous about not dipping into the bank of Mom and Dad, and have some piddling savings myself, I'm looking for a decent second hand car in the 10-15k pound range. That will require guilt tripping my dad into paying for most of it, but hey, he loves me, I've made him proud, and my brother already de-facto owns the one nice car we've got.

Requirements?

  1. Automatic. I might know how to drive stick, but I don't want to.
  2. Ideally a sedan. I think they look cooler.
  3. Something that looks half decent. Not because I particularly care, but I'm single and don't want to roll up in a broken down Lada.
  4. Basic creature comforts. I mean, you have to go really down market to find a car in India that doesn't have air conditioning or heating, but my ass would appreciate heated seats. Consider this optional.
  5. Decent fuel economy. It's a low COL area, and I'm not one to travel much, but every penny saved helps when the NHS is so stingy.

I'd appreciate all the insight you can provide. I'm very much a novice at this, I'm going to have to learn to do things like change tyres or replace the oil, and other essentials like topping up blinker fluid. But youtube will suffice for that. I want brands, models, and years. I'm not very picky, so have at it.

Edit:

  1. Decent infotainment system by default would be nice, you know, from after Bluetooth codecs became decent. Phones these days don't come with auxes, and while I could replace it, that would probably be relatively expensive.
  2. Remote start and rear view camera. I've only tested my parallel parking skills in GTA, not that I'm an elderly Asian woman.

Also, do BMWs deserve their bad rep? In terms of servicing that is.

What are you looking for in terms of age and mileage? How far would you be willing to push to get a better deal? I went from buying private, to buying at auction, to buying salvage at auction and repairing them myself so I've run the gamut. I'm going to assume you won't be doing the latter, but auction is still a viable route if you're okay to gamble a bit.

If you're going autotrader, then 10-15k will be more than enough to get a 'prestige' sedan, a BMW or Merc type. For comparison sake, I just sold a Jag XE, 2015, for around the 6k mark. I'd imagine that a 2015-17, 60-80k milage sedan from any of those brands would be fine. You'll want a diesel if fuel economy matters, especially in Scotland where you won't be taking so many short trips.

Would I recommend the XE? Probably not, it will be a bit more work than you would like although I think it is the best looking in that category. Really I don't think you'll do much wrong just finding an e220 or c-class Merc in that price range. If you want more mod-cons and keep the budget low, a Mazda 6 perhaps?

I genuinely don't know dawg! I've never seriously thought about buying a car in India, first or second hand. Never needed it. It's my brother who's a car nerd, I just (barely) know how to drive under supervision in light traffic and play some Forza from time to time.

As long as the car meets the requirements I've listed, the more the merrier, I'm not picky about vintage. I understand that you don't want one that has too many miles on it, and I know if you go too far back a lot of modern electronics aren't an option. That's about it.

Feel free to assume I'm an idiot and discuss accordingly, as basic as it gets.

I've had people try and scare me off German luxury cars before, claiming that they're a pain in the ass to maintain, and said maintenance is expensive. If you think that's overblown or disagree, I genuinely have no clue how I can expect it to cost me over use. And I would prefer a car that doesn't demand too much of me, while still looking good.

Now if I can get one under my assigned budget, all the better. What condition was your Jag when you sold it? Like, that would be ludicrously low price in India for a secondhand Jaguar from the past decade, I imagine it would easily go for double or triple, but I'm no expert.

I've had my brother, the one in India, and cousins there, recommend Mazdas. Not precisely my type, but I'm open to changing my mind.

All I know is that I know nothing very little about all the costs, issues and responsibilities car ownership entails. I was putting off buying one till it was a necessity.

I think given your budget you probably don't need to overthink it or look too much at advice here. You have enough to afford something recent without too many miles so really the only thing you want to think about is which car you like the look of. Plenty of people don't worry too much beyond that and do just fine.

Any of the prestige sedans will work for you. Some people will claim X brand has so many issues or to avoid one specific car, but most of this will just be anecdotal. No one owns enough cars to say that "every BMW is a pain". There will sometimes be known issues with certain models - e.g. the Jag XE ingenium engine had problems with the timing belt in early models. But these are rare and not normally catastrophic to deal with.

Other than Teslas, which have pretty poor reliability used, you can buy any of Audi, BMW, Mercedes, Jaguar, Volvo, Lexus, even Alfa Romeos are offering reliable cars these days. I would just look through these brands and find the one you like the look of most, then go and buy one. Personally I like the look of Jags, XE and newer XFs. I think the 2010 stylings of Audis and BMWs was a bit safe. Mercedes always does a decent job. I like the Volvo s90 a lot but that might be outside of your price range, and I'm less keen on the lower end volvos.

It's true that maintenance will be more expensive, much the same as a big house will cost more than a small house. Nice things always cost a bit more. But you would still be looking at a yearly service + MOT of around £300-£400. If you have issues it will run up the price, but this is true of any car. Of course you can also spend plenty on valeting, modifications, bodywork, tyres, etc. but this will be your choice.

When you come to buy, there are a couple of things to be aware of:

  • Look for cars with "full service history" if you want maximum peace of mind, as this means they have been taken care of
  • With a private sale, you can get extra detail by doing a free HPI check at sites like: https://hpicheck.com/. These will also give you a rough valuation
  • Avoid cars marked as Cat N or Cat S. This means they have previously been written off
  • Even if you know nothing about cars, just use your senses when test driving. Does it sound weird? Are there funny smells? Does it feel weird?

You're not that likely to get saddled with a lemon in the used car market, and although caveat emptor applies, there is some legal protection for complete deceptions. Mostly just a bit of common sense will be enough.

I highly appreciate the thorough explanation.

If getting a fancy German car second hand doesn't entail that much suffering, then it's something I'll seriously consider. Shame I wasn't around to poach the Jag, heh.

It's true that maintenance will be more expensive, much the same as a big house will cost more than a small house. Nice things always cost a bit more. But you would still be looking at a yearly service + MOT of around £300-£400. If you have issues it will run up the price, but this is true of any car. Of course you can also spend plenty on valeting, modifications, bodywork, tyres, etc. but this will be your choice.

That doesn't sound terrible at all. Not that I'm going to modify it much, if I want my car to look extra cool, I'll just play more Forza haha. At most I might get a paintjob.

Is there a particular source you'd recommend for actually buying a car secondhand? Is it better to close a deal in person or rely on something online?

Should I take it to a mechanic first for an opinion before the purchase?

Also, how large is the premium on automatics? I know how to (badly) drive stick, but I'd rather not.

If you're doing a deal online, it will be with a used car dealer like Cazoo. Which there probably isn't anything wrong with, you'll get peace of mind, but you also pay a big premium. If you're buying from a private seller, you'll need to do it in person, and the best platform is Autotrader.

A lot of private sellers probably won't be willing to take the car to a mechanic for you, and used car dealers certainly wouldn't.

I'm not sure on automatic premium, probably sub 1k for an identical year/mileage car? So about a 10% premium at your budget.

I see. Thank you again. For now, I've just been looking at whatever looks sick on autotrader, and skipping about 80% of them when my brother yells at me. Praying that's enough, or I'll have to pick your brains later lol.

As others have said--Honda Civic, assuming they're as readily available there as they are in the U.S. Remote start has been available since 2008 models, rear view cameras have been standard in the U.S. since the 2013, and the infotainment system is competent. Heated seats available on some models since 2020, which is probably newer than you can get in the price range you're talking--but they do exist. If you want to shave the price a little further, Toyota Corollas are similarly reliable and equipped. Given my own life experience, I doubt I'll ever buy a non-Japanese model again.

It has been decades since I heard anyone seriously praise a BMW, and in the price range you're talking, I can't imagine you'll see many comfortable BMWs unless the UK has a very different used car market than the US right now.

I can't imagine you'll see many comfortable BMWs unless the UK has a very different used car market than the US right now.

There actually are even under 10k BMWs with under 15,000 miles on the market online right now. Autotrader is very good for this sort of searching.

And what are the odds they're going to breakdown on me and require the same sum in servicing? I don't know how much of that is a meme, or how expensive it'll get.

BMWs are rather expensive here, like, you know someone in India has broken out of the UMC if they drive one. Most cars not manufactured here have their prices literally doubled because of import tariffs. So even a brand new one is far more expensive and it's a far poorer country. It's why Musk never launched Tesla here, he couldn't get the government to budge, and probably realized that the market willing to pay those prices for an EV would probably be picking up a Porsche, leaving aside the difficulty and cost of making supercharge stations.

My family could definitely afford one new, here, but we couldn't when I was growing up, and we have nothing to prove in that regard. Our money is mostly tied up in sensible things like investments or real estate.

Man, y'all are old, recommending safe, boring and respectable choices like Hondas, Toyota and Volvos (not that I don't appreciate them nonetheless, maybe I should also consider practicality too haha).

And yeah, a BMW secondhand is probably a touch outside my ideal price range, but I could get one. I'm just financially responsible enough that I don't think that's a good idea anytime soon.

To be fair, your price range (which is what, 15-25k USD or something?) is nicely lined up with the safe/boring/respectable market segment. Not saying you can't get fun cars in that range, but the practical cars dominate.

Isn't the median car price in the US like $35k? But you lot are certainly fond of overpriced pickups and massive SUVs used to ferry the kids to school and pick up groceries.

I guess I don't know statistically what the median is, but to me (and I think to most people I know) $35k is kind of expensive. Not like hella expensive, but enough that it would be out of reach for a lot of people.

https://www.moneygeek.com/insurance/auto/average-price-of-a-new-car/#:~:text=Data%20from%20Kelley%20Blue%20Book,in%20the%20last%2012%20months

This place claims $48k as the average price as of March 2023, which is as ludicrous to me as it is to you I'd bet. Other sources claim $47k.

Wow... that is mind blowing to me. I realize that I'm an outlier (I have only ever owned used cars, never spending more than $6k). But I didn't realize I was that much of an outlier.

I guess the people bitching on Reddit about people with unnecessary pickups and overlarge SUVs weren't entirely wrong eh?

Or it could be Marines fresh out of boot with a dependa and a 2023 Mustang at 30% APR.

In India, a good new car costs about $18k or maybe $15k. I'm talking a respectable model with modern amenities from a decent brand, if we're talking luxury models that make other guys look, that's in the $35k range. Never was my thing myself. Something that isn't an utter embarrassment might be $5k new.

But you lot are certainly fond of overpriced pickups and massive SUVs used to ferry the kids to school and pick up groceries.

Small trucks are functionally illegal to sell in the US, so that's a gimme. As far as the SUVs (and the jacked-up station wagons we call "crossovers") go, I believe the reason people want them is sure, for utilitarian reasons, but there are a bunch of usability things that SUVs have over normal station wagons:

  • Way easier to climb up than down, especially in tight parking spaces, or for people who are fat and/or old
  • HID/LED headlights mean vehicle height is an arms race for visibility
  • Extreme standards for rollover and crash protection mean you need all the height (for visibility) you can get

I will point out that it can be a viable strategy to get something older for cheaper and pay for preventative maintenance; your TCO may be less in that instance though after some years (15-20 in drier climates, but being close to the ocean brings salt in the air) you need to also start worrying about rust. I'm not sure if it's functionally illegal to have an older car in Scotland.

You want something fun that's also going to last... why not a Subaru WRX? Fuel economy with them could be better but isn't bad; just avoid the naturally-aspirated models older than 2012 or so because their head gaskets are wear items in ways not true for the turbos. Available in a sedan, practical enough, good for the occasional snowfall.

I understand that there are people who do buy them for utilitarian reasons, but the majority of drivers seem to be suburban soccer moms, or at least that's what other Americans online like to claim. I haven't been in the States since before the NYC skyline looked very different.

Hmm, the WRX sedan variant doesn't look bad at all, I'll look into it too, though I don't know what the fuck a head gasket is (I know what a gasket is).

I know what a gasket is

The head gasket is a special kind of gasket that goes between the engine block and the cover (where the valves are). The reason it's there is because there are passages for oil and coolant that are shared between those two halves.

Some of the older Subarus that didn't have turbos (specifically, the 2.5L models) until around... 2011ish? used a substandard head gasket that would eventually fail (it is an expensive repair). The turbocharged ones used a better one that don't have that problem.

I would have googled that later, but I do appreciate you taking the time to break it down in detail!

you know, from after Bluetooth codecs became decent

Decent Bluetooth codecs have been on the market for 15+ years (ever since APTx and AAC got added as options). The problem has always been that the codec makers charge $1-2 / device license fee and receiver manufacturers have been often too cheap to incorporate them outside "high end" devices.

For car use even the default SBC will be decent enough since the audio quality will be far more limited by the poor frequency response and distortion of typical car audio systems as well as the background noise from the engine and the tires.

Source: I used to work as a BT stack dev in previous life.

Hmm.. Thanks for chiming in. I suppose that alleviates quite a lot of my concern.

10-15k is a fair bit higher than you really need to spend to get something decent imo, if 'every penny saved helps'. Hatchbacks tend to provide much better value than other body types, and imo for a relatively young person look better anyway. Saloons are very middle aged. Automatics command a premium too as you doubtless know, and after a while driving a manual it really becomes second nature.

Still, even if you do want an automatic it's hard to beat a Vauxhall Corsa for value - yes it's a hatchback, but all the 2010s ones look good. There are automatic versions with <40k miles for less than 6 grand on autotrader.

If you really do want a saloon, a Volvo S40/60/80 might be decent value and pretty reliable? There are S40s with <30,000 miles in the £5-6k range, a handful of them automatic.

Huh. I definitely didn't know there was an association between age and driving a sedan. That's very much not a stereotype in India. Sedans are aspirational, and so are SUVs, though not as much as the States.

I could certainly save more money, but it's okay, I'm going for 3 years at the least and have a wide geographic range to traverse too. So if my budget is excessive, I can always opt for something cheaper, but that's about as much I'm willing to treat myself since it's both a matter of practical utility and something that I want to look decent, I'll be getting some mileage on it if I want to escape small towns and head over to Edinburgh on the weekends.

To put it into perspective, that's about what might be expected for an Indian doctor breaking into residency to splurge on first hand, though most of us would likely need a car loan. I probably won't, it's the only big ticket purchase I don't feel bad about asking my dad for, since he did once promise me a car when I finished med school. I was the one who turned down the offer, because I'm a fucking homebody and never saw the appeal of burning fossil fuels for fun. But now it's a genuine necessity.

Automatics command a premium too as you doubtless know, and after a while driving a manual it really becomes second nature.

A premium I'm willing to accept. I'd call it a deal breaker really. While I did/am learning to drive stick, I consider it a nuisance, even if I'm sure I'd get used to it like everyone else. I likely will be at best ok at driving by the time I'm in the UK, I'm resuming my driving lessons and do actually need to pass them, but even with our questionable roads, I doubt I'd be entirely comfortable. Still have to make do, if I leave with a driving license that earns me 2 years of leeway before I have to apply for a British one, which is much harder to get.

Still, even if you do want an automatic it's hard to beat a Vauxhall Corsa for value - yes it's a hatchback, but all the 2010s ones look good. There are automatic versions with <40k miles for less than 6 grand on autotrader.

If you really do want a saloon, a Volvo S40/60/80 might be decent value and pretty reliable? There are S40s with <30,000 miles in the £5-6k range, a handful of them automatic.

I like the look of the Astra more, but the Corsa isn't bad. I'm just a little leery of hatchbacks for idiosyncratic reasons.

The S40 and the S80 both seem to be something an elderly driver in the slow lane would drive, but the S60 has some style. Is it significantly more expensive?

I appreciate the advice, tailored as it is for the UK!

Huh. I definitely didn't know there was an association between age and driving a sedan. That's very much not a stereotype in India. Sedans are aspirational, and so are SUVs, though not as much as the States.

Yeah it's really hard to understate the dominance of hatchbacks among young car drivers, which is partly driven by their relatively better fuel consumption, insurance grouping, price etc. than bigger cars of course, but still, perhaps downstream of those factors there is a general cultural association of hatchbacks as young peoples' cars. Not exclusively, older people do drive hatchbacks often too, but virtually every young person drives a hatchback. Saloons/sedans are - at least in my impression, maybe other Brits would disagree - pretty deeply uncool for a young person and associated with balding professionals. Not necessarily a reason not to get one, if you don't care what other people think (and I have no idea how young you are), and it's not like it matters that much, but if you do something to be aware of. Also bear in mind that among some elements of the middle classes 'looking' aspirational is not necessarily a good thing, though again this doesn't really matter and no-one will care about your car much anyway.

Sedans just aren't that popular full stop, as they get outcompeted as family cars by crossovers, estates and SUVs which are more practical, and without either young people or families it doesn't leave a huge market.

A premium I'm willing to accept. I'd call it a deal breaker really. While I did/am learning to drive stick, I consider it a nuisance, even if I'm sure I'd get used to it like everyone else. I likely will be at best ok at driving by the time I'm in the UK, I'm resuming my driving lessons and do actually need to pass them, but even with our questionable roads, I doubt I'd be entirely comfortable. Still have to make do, if I leave with a driving license that earns me 2 years of leeway before I have to apply for a British one, which is much harder to get.

Fair (though I've got to imagine that even if the test is harder driving in Britain is much easier than in India), but bear in mind that if you do the test in Britain in an automatic you will not be allowed to drive a manual under any circumstances, which might be annoying if you ever need to drive a rental car/van/friend's car/whatever.

Overall, if you are looking for an automatic in the £10k range, you will be able to get a considerably lower mileage, more economical, newer car if you do go for a hatchback. For that price you can get a virtually new 2023 Corsa at the moment and you would struggle to get any low-mileage sedan that wasn't old or uneconomical.

Oh driving is waaaay easier in the UK. When I have relatives who either learned to drive there or became accustomed to it return to India, they have conniptions at the sight of our roads, let alone the other vehicles. Hell, even as a pedestrian, I once got into an involuntary standoff with a car at an unmarked crossing. I was waiting for him to cross first, and it took me a good minute to realize he was polite enough to wait for me to go first. We were both smiling and shaking our heads at each other when I did figure that out. I'm used to running madly across the road in the middle of traffic. Not that bad, we all do it, and nobody I know has died yet.

And I'll be traveling down sedate suburbs and if I'm unlucky, some lovely rural countryside (I'm a city guy, sadly), so I don't expect to be engaging in illegal street racing.

Saloons/sedans are - at least in my impression, maybe other Brits would disagree - pretty deeply uncool for a young person and associated with balding professionals

@2rafa thoughts? Because I'd be pissed off if it's true, a little. Because I personally prefer the aesthetics of sedans and saloons, though I obviously care at least a bit what others think.

Not that I think estate cars or crossovers look bad, I strongly dislike SUVs for how impractical they are, and a hatchback just screams broke motherfucker to me here, even if it's different elsewhere. I guess I'll get over my hangups if I have to. Thanks!

I drive the American brother of the Vauxhall Astra and I really like it. It's been a dead reliable car with all the features you describe. Mine is a 2014. I've driven it for five years now and have never needed to do maintenance beyond what's in the owner's manual. (Except one time I had to replace a shock absorber because I hit a pothole very hard. That's not the car's fault.)

Hmm, it doesn't look quite like a sedan to me, but it is rather aesthetically appealing and looks practical. I'll check the price once I land! Not a bad choice, thank you.

You're right, sorry, upon further research: the sedan was only offered in Britain in certain limited model years, and the estate is much more common. Shame as I do have the sedan type myself.

Still, check it out and perhaps you'll like it. Happy hunting mate.

Even the estate variant doesn't look half bad, so I appreciate the rec! Let's hope something fits into my budget haha.

Yeah, same answer as @WhiningCoil here, my generic advice would be to just get a Honda Civic. If you don't have anything really specific you're looking for, they just do everything pretty decently well.

My less generic advice is that hatchbacks are absolutely fantastic and provide a massive improve in storage ability without any meaningful drawback. My first experience with this was with a little Acura RSX (which is basically a slightly fancy, sporty Honda Civic) and having the ability to flip those rear seats down and haul a bunch of stuff is super helpful. You won't need this feature often, but when you do, you'll love it. To that end, might I suggest a Subaru Impreza?

I just think sedans look cooler than hatchbacks. That's about it really.

I can sacrifice some practicality for that, if I'm driving the fucker for at least 3 years, I'd like to feel good about it haha. But I just looked at the actual car and it's sedan-ish enough for me to take it seriously into contention. Thanks!

I'm not sure about Scotland, but stateside it's hard to go wrong with a Honda Civic or Toyota Corolla. Even over 100,000 miles you aren't likely to have to deal with any major engine or transmission work. Although on my Civic, before the tree fell on it, I was having to get wheel bearings replaced and things like that. The alignment was also just permanently out of whack at that point, probably my own damned fault for driving it too rough over potholes and the like. The speakers had blown out too, but those were easy enough to replace myself for $100 in parts off Amazon. Aside from that it was regular maintenance and things you'd expect like replacing tires and brakes.

All the same, I drove that thing from 2007 until 2022 or so. I regret nothing and want another whenever the chance presents itself.

Corolla squad. Mine’s a 2007 and still runs with no trouble. I will drive this until I have to change.

Hmm.. Very vanilla, but even I know enough about cars to agree that it's a safe and steady choice.

Is there a particular vintage that might fall in said price bracket? I'd rather not get one of the really old ones before Bluetooth got half decent. Remote start, parking cameras, that kinda stuff.

I drove a corolla until it started giving me trouble (around 300,000 km), followed by a prius until that started giving me trouble (around 400,000 km), both were IMO quite good cars. I think you should be able to get a lightly used one that is <10 years old within your budget in Scotland, and that should have all the creature comforts you want.

That said, for bluetooth specifically, for $20, you can get a thing which plugs into the cigarette lighter of a car and does bluetooth pairing and then broadcasts to a radio frequency (choose a dead channel), which you can then tune your car radio to. In my experience they work well enough that you never think about them once you've done the initial 2 minutes of setup - your phone just automatically pairs when you get in the car, and the car speakers play what your phone is playing.

If you are particularly adventurous you can also just replace the whole head unit and get something with all the features you want. Not even that hard to do.

Huh. That's new to me. I really hope I don't have to resort to that, but I appreciate the information, it might even come in handy should my budget prove optimistic.

Also useful if your car has bluetooth but it's janky.

Guessing, cause once again, I'm stateside, 10k USD used to get you a Civic or Corolla about 6-8 years old, with 60,000-80,000 miles on it. Wouldn't count on luxuries like heated seats, parking camera or remote start though. Also, sanity checking those prices now, that appears to have been solidly in the before times, and it's now 15k USD-ish for a 10-15 year old model with roughly 100,000 miles on it. Which is wild, cause that's verging on what I paid for my 2007 Civic off the lot.

Ah well, inflation's a bitch.

Thanks. I don't think the marker for second hand cars in the UK ever got that red hot though I'm no expert, but at any rate, I need a car and will inevitably settle for something in my budget.

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