netstack
Texas is freedom land
just now
Your link is for 10% is broken.
Since there’s significant debate over the threshold for “mass shooting”, is it possible that statistic is using a pretty low minimum? I would expect the percentage involving psychosis to go up a lot with casualty count.
I also think there’s a categorical difference between spontaneous violence and ideological shootings.
MayorofOysterville
5m ago
It's not just the form but the content as well. Praying to Jesus drawing lessons from the gospels, putting up nativity scenes.
urquan
Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?
5m ago
More like I think people who drink excessively (i.e. drink to get drunk), use drugs, and engage in promiscuous sex are engaging in a lifestyle which leaves them feeling very empty and lifeless. My issue with the illiberal radical Left is that they not only enable but encourage that kind of behavior.
Right -- they're your outgroup. If they started to describe themselves as "classical liberals", you'd balk: you've just called them the "illiberal radical Left", which contains just as much condemnation and othering as "Mormons aren't Christians!"
I agree with @Corvos's take: my view on what you've written is that religious distinctions aren't very important to you, and you don't believe a person's choice either way on the matter makes much difference to the outcomes of their lifestyle. So long as they avoid drinking excessively, using drugs, or engaging in promiscuous sex, of course.
But Nicene Christians of the sort who would say "Mormons aren't Christians" disagree with you: they believe that following the LDS faith to its endpoint leads to eternal conscious torment, or in other words is a lifestyle that "leaves them feeling very empty and lifeless." You can disagree with their point of view on this, and perhaps you should, but that's their point of view which motivates their feeling. You're frustrated that people are writing online articles encouraging women to have promiscious sex, and see that as harmful... well, the LDS literally sends its young men to go door to door actively encouraging people to become Mormon! If you believe that's a harmful path to go down, as many Protestants do, you would feel the same level of concern about it. They'd argue that abstaining from promiscuous sex, drinking, and drugs does you no good, if you don't have the right set of beliefs. You disagree, and invert the importance, but that's not their view.
Furthermore, plenty of people disagree that excessive drinking, using drugs, or promiscious sex leads inevitably to lifelessness and emptiness. To make that determination, you have to actually take a step back and look at evidence, listen to anecdotes, read statistics, as I'm sure you've done. But because the truth claims of the LDS and Nicene Christianity are cosmic, we can't use the same kind of empiricism on them, and so people who believe these things are important rely on their own epistemological standards for what's cosmically true: sacred texts, ancient creeds, community consensus, personal testimony -- all of which are vitally important both for Nicene Christians and the LDS. When people say, "Mormons aren't Christians", they're making the exact same claim as "the radical left is illiberal."
Classical liberalism did not emerge out of a sudden singing of kumbaya, and many of the world's most fruitful democracies have histories as twisted and bloody as the religious wars that led to religious tolerance. You can handwave away that similarity, and say that of course the democratic revolutions in France or America or the English Civil War or the revolutions of Latin America was violence that led to good things, but the people who killed the Huguenots and the Calvinists who stripped altars in grand riots believed they were doing the very same thing: eliminating pathways that lead to feelings of emptiness and lifelessness in the long run. You can believe they were horribly mistaken about this, and many people do, but simply saying "these feelings historically led to violence, therefore I am revolted by them," seems to miss the point that the classical, classical liberal archetypally holds a musket pointed at the head of an aristocrat.
MayorofOysterville
6m ago
Yes but it's more than vibes. The same prayers the same hymns, the eucharist, and drawing lessons from the Bible and gospels. It's the content too not just the forms.
Not really, not to the same extent or of the same kind. Europe broadly doesn’t allow handguns or concealed carry, and makes getting a rifle difficult. The same is broadly true for Asia, Russia and a bit less so for India. Africa is unable to enforce this kind of thing.
The map of worldwide gun ownership per capita (which was made by the Swiss) is teal and blue globally, with a black blobs for America, Alaska and Yemen.
America doesn’t have handguns, ARs etc. because of its size and wild animals, it has them because it is (ironically) a very conservative country based on armed revolution.
Plus of course because you need them to protect yourself from all the people with guns. I’ve never seen posters here advocate for gun ownership to protect from wild animals, it’s always as a Schelling Point against government overreach or for self-defence.
Celestial-body-NOS
Supra tumulum tuum, astra nobis.
12m ago
I'd put them in the 'Jesus-influenced' circle, or possibly add an intermediate circle between it and the outermost category.
hydroacetylene
14m ago
The Eastern Orthodox have never defined their sacraments well enough.
In general most orthodox jurisdictions(not ROCOR) accept documented baptisms by the same denominations Catholics do, and first marriages by default. Recognizing Catholic or oriental orthodox holy orders and confirmations is more complicated.
hydroacetylene
16m ago
I believe Mormons have different levels of heaven, with only Mormons going to the top one, a second layer for non-Mormon Christians- that may or may not include evangelicals, theres a lot of bad blood between the two communities, but generally includes practicing Catholics, Lutherans, etc- and a bottom layer for nonbelievers. Not a Mormon, could be wrong.
Throwaway05
21m ago
Keep in mind that the U.S. is not just LA, DC, and NYC - it is also Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho.
I'm pretty much most countries like the US have gun rights.
How much? Okay that can be a problem, but when social services are three hours away and wild animals are an actual threat....you have to.
Europe is not the US
Tenaz
23m ago
You're getting most of your details wrong. "God was once a man" was never a "core theological belief" nor arguably an LDS belief at all. Nobody ever taught we get our own planet. We don't believe Jews sailed to North America around 2000 BC, we believe Israelites sailed there on at least two separate occasions around 600 BC, another unrelated group of people (not Israelites) thousands of years earlier, and probably other groups besides.
What's so objectionable about Kolob, given that God has a body? You bring it up as an example of a thing you think is wrong, but it looks to me more like an example of a thing you think is weird.
And if so many core theological beliefs of Mormons just eventually get erased out, as the “god was once a man” did in 1997 or so, then what is the point of any of it at all?
Name one core theological belief of Mormons that eventually got erased out. I'm not aware of any.
As far as the literal truth of the Book of Mormon: there’s obviously a ton of problems here. Horses not existing in pre Colombian america, for instance. Jews not sailing from the Levant to North America in ~2000BC for another.
We can go through the laundry list of apologetics. It would be a long debate and I'd be reticent to do it with someone much better-informed and more intellectually honest than you have been. Suffice to say that the archeological consensus on this is not nearly as definitive as you'd think, and the details we have been able to verify (those that take place in known locations in the Middle East) have proven surprisingly accurate.
It seems like you’re claiming there really aren’t many differences at all.
The doctrinal differences are real and significant, but the church wasn't restored to bring back doctrine; it was restored to bring back priesthood authority and organization. This would still have been necessary even if there were no fundamental disagreements about things like the Nicene Creed or infant baptism.
BahRamYou
26m ago
Well, there's probably a lot of that that too. But I can see why anyone who's in charge of Egypt's ministry of antiquities would want the work done by their own people, instead of handing it all off to foreigners. And they would probably want a very slow, careful approach (what's a few more decades when these things have been around for thousands of years) rather than trying to build the career of whatever young hotshot wants to go digging right now.
No, but if all psychotic crazies magically disappeared, then then mass-shootings would only go down by 10%.
It implies that the primary reason for mass-shootings in the US is not schizophrenia. And therefore, black people's higher vulnerability towards Schizophrenia isn't significantly affecting mass-shootings in the US.
hydroacetylene
29m ago
Most gun store owners are responsible, but if he tries enough of them…
Ioper
30m ago
a shame that Egypt can't do a better job allowing academic research to these places. But I can appreciate the bind they're in... a very poor nation, with a history of foreign archaeologists destroying their monuments, and also a hotbed of religious strife that might react poorly to sudden discoveries of ancient relics from a heretical religion.
I thought it wasn't so much that as Zahi Hawass ego standing in the way.
urquan
Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?
34m ago
since we believe virtually everyone will be
If I don't have to become Mormon to be saved, why should I become Mormon?
That's the pretty obvious question that every religious tradition that starts endorsing soft or hard universalism has to grapple with. Becoming LDS would require an extensive set of sacrifices, like giving up hot drinks and taking on certain tithing practices, and also requires submission to a strong institution of religious authority. If that's not actually necessary to achieve the same goal that Mormons hope to achieve, why not "eat, drink [coffee], and be merry" now, and let God sort out whether the LDS are right or not?
Tenaz
39m ago
I don't think this is correct statement of Mormon theology. Mormons believe that saving ordinances (including baptism) are necessary for salvation, that only an ordained priest (in what is effectively an apostolic succession, although I don't think Mormons use the word) can validly perform them, and that the break in apostolic succession during the so-called Great Apostasy means that only the LDS Church and its offshoots have validly ordained priests. Hence the Mormon emphasis on proxy baptism for the dead - they believe that their pre-conversion ancestors are not effectively baptised, and need to be.
The point I was making is that "are Mormons Christian" fundamentally asks whether Mormons are saved, and Mormons have no equivalent question, since we believe virtually everyone will be. Yes, we believe only our baptisms are authoritative, and only our church is God's true church on the earth, but there is no equivalent "are Christians Mormon". That's just not how we view the requirements for salvation in general.
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
45m ago
Thankfully, that psychosis does not translate to more mass shootings. Only about 10% of mass shootings are attributable to psychosis.
Do you think 10% of the population is psychotic?
Tenaz
49m ago
Yeah, but I'm not aware of anywhere where their polygyny is explicitly endorsed by God the way David's is.
DirtyWaterHotDog
51m ago
It is a can worth opening, in no small part because Black people are 4x more likely to be schizophrenic. Schizophrenia in men leads to significantly higher rates of violent crime.
Thankfully, that psychosis does not translate to more mass shootings. Only about 10% of mass shootings are attributable to psychosis. It's possible that psychosis makes it harder to plan and execute a mass shooting. But that's my color commentary.
where is the line?
I consider myself to be a strong proponent of the Second Amendment, but that conversation made me consider the merits of having a chat with my local police department. Awkwarrrrrrd.
I'm not a fan of the 2nd amendment, and won't pretend to feel this conundrum as viscerally as you, or at all. But, 'crazy people shouldn't have guns' seems like an easy concession. I don't buy into slippery slope arguments. Afaik, 'First they came for the crazy people' isn't part of the original quote.
Guns aren't essential. They're somewhere between a hobby and a worst case backup if something crazy happens. For one, no one is entitled to a hobby. Second, if you've been institutionalized or are psychotic, then that 'something crazy' is YOU.
Tenaz
51m ago
I... don't see how one can comment on the meaning of the word 'Christian' without being primarily theological. 'Christian' is a theological term.
Others want to use "Christian" as a group signifier, but your definition here is closer to something that would exclude Judas and include devout atheists who were baptized as children. It can also be a theological term without referring to one's standing before God--you could argue that being Christian means believing in certain key characteristics about Jesus.
(I am not quite as pessimistic as your linked study - I think survey design can be unreliable, most people struggle with theological language, and there is often a sensus fidei that exceeds the ability of people to explicate their faith. If a Catholic says the Nicene Creed every Sunday at mass, sincerely intending to believe it, but when asked to define the Trinity during the week descends into waffle, I would extend some charity. The linked paper doesn't include the questions themselves and has some red flags for me - who the heck are 'Integrated Disciples'? they possess a 'biblical worldview'? huh? - so I'm skeptical. Nonetheless, no one could deny that ignorance or confusion around the Trinity is very common.)
Yeah, I couldn't find any others, but the linked study definitely isn't great.
So perhaps it would be helpful to refine a little. I claim that Mormonism, which is to say that which the Mormon church presents for belief, is not a form of Christianity.
Here we differ. If the thief on the cross practiced a form of Christianity (as I believe he did) then we can accept extreme diversions from and gaps in knowledge of Truth, and still ultimately call a belief system Christianity. Yes, the thief was perhaps justifiably ignorant where later groups are not, but belief systems are not ignorant or informed. They are ideas, they are the things about which we are ignorant or informed. A belief system is either true or false, valid or invalid, Christianity or not Christianity. You could say something like "nobody nowadays is as ignorant as the thief on the cross, and therefore no practicing Mormon is a valid Christian" but this is just not true--the thief was a whole lot more informed than, for example, your average 2-week-old.
In other words, let's say you have a 60 IQ and have only ever been exposed to Mormonism. You don't even know what the godhead or the trinity are; you just believe in God and his Son in very general terms. Is that belief system Christianity? Is it Mormonism? I don't think ideas exist outside of people's heads, so if someone can be both a practicing Christian and a practicing Mormon, then Mormonism is a form of Christianity.
But if you ask me to accept that most Americans who call themselves Christians are not meaningfully Christian, then I will do that. That is probably and unfortunately the case.
Fair enough, I just hope you keep this in mind the next time this debate comes up.
naraburns
nihil supernum
53m ago
Petty nitpick, curious if there's other reporting that suggests it was targeted for some reason
Not petty at all! I should probably have worded that a little differently--as you say, "motivated" rather than "targeted," despite the language used by the police. The targeted bar seems to have a vaguely patriotic theme to it (red-white-and-blue logos, flying an American flag but no pride flags that I can spot on the Google Maps page). It would be interesting to know whether the shooter regarded the bar as a hotbed of "LGBTQ white supremacy" activity, but it feels like in most of these cases the powers-that-be would prefer to suppress clues along those lines as best they can.
Throwaway05
1hr ago
I mean I'm aware it exists but I've never actually seen it which says something unfortunate.
Some places have "ACT/PACT/Whatever" teams that follow people in the community so they don't need to go to appointments but that requires sufficient patient engagement.
Usually that means lots of commitments and you get them with "you wanna stay out of the hospital bro?"
But we let a lot of people wander who dont want treatment and stay out of trouble.
Usually drugs is what gets people involved because it makes them erratic enough for the police to get involved.
It may not be part of the quote, but it sure was part of the process.
In 19th century America, being a slave who did not want to be enslaved was considered to be a mental disorder called drapetomania. In modern society, this would mean that a desire to be a human and not property would cost you your right to bear arms.
Fast forward to the Soviet era, disagreement with communist politics would lead to being diagnosed with sluggish schizophrenia, because no sane person would object to the Glorious Dialectic. In modern society, having misgivings about liquidating the kulaks would cost you your right to bear arms.
As late as the 1960s, police arrested Clennon King for having the audacity to try and attend college while black and confined him to a mental institution. In modern society, this would have cost him his right to bear arms.
Where do you think the line is? Do you find any of those acceptable? If not, how do you prevent those abuses under the framework that you espouse above?
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