domain:drmanhattan16.substack.com
MaiqTheTrue
Renrijra Krin
2hr ago
Even if that weren’t true, you still have the knock on social effects— street crime, obviously violence between dealers, property damage, neglect of children and wife, probably can’t keep a job so we’re paying for his survival (and paying more now that he’s in jail), so it’s nothing but negative outcomes and I think even marijuana is a but suspect in this. I can’t think f any drugs (even alcohol) that make things better.
Stefferi
Chief Suomiposter
2hr ago
Liz Cheney is an unimportant bit player who hasn't been connected to the movement-right for years and Musk is specifically currently trying to start a party that's "neither left or right" (whether that's true or not, that at least is the self-description), so I'm not sure why these would be the figures for estimating this.
atelier
Jimmys: unrustled
2hr ago
Did Rubin or even Clinton speak for the left? US parties are really more like coalitions and even the president shouldn't be thought of as the best representative of all the groups, they're the one whose tolerable to the most groups not usually their favorite.
quiet_NaN
2hr ago
The truth is "American don't want to do those jobs for those wages" and that is what this is (and has always been) about, wages.The Plantation owners don't want to pay the help, and once again the Democrats (who have always been the Party of the Plantation Owners)
I do not think that the democrats are the party of plantation owners these days.
Most D voters are living in urban centers, not on rural plantations. They care about cities, LGBT, social justice and so on. By contrast, I would imagine that most plantations and orchards are in rural states. Any rural states which vote reliably for the GOP -- which I imagine are quite a lot of them might simply not be worth catering to by the Dems on a federal level.
Also, if it was true, then it would have made sense for Trump to go after the illegal immigrants working on farms first, thereby depriving his political enemies of resources. What he did is the opposite: he explicitly spared the farm workers. This suggests to me that he needs the farm and plantation owners, who likely voted for him at least partly.
HereAndGone
3hr ago
I don't think anyone should aspire to those kinds of occupations, nor romanticize or fetishize them.
And yet the work has to be done, and we don't yet have the robots to do it. All the unglamorous necessary toil to support civilisation.
NunoSempere
3hr ago
the ADIZ extends like a rectangle up into China proper
Thanks, I didn't know that!
HereAndGone
3hr ago
The running plot, such as it is, throughout the books is good but it's mostly "the Napoleonic Wars at sea" so unless you're absolutely fascinated by the minutiae of naval campaigns, the real interest is "ooh so this was what life was like on a ship at that time" and then it's "will Jack advance his career, will Stephen ever have a happy relationship, never mind they're best bros and we all love learning natural history".
There are just so many great lines (everyone's favourite is this one) (warning: TV Tropes link):
Stephen acquires a sloth in South America, and it immediately befriends everybody aboard. Except Jack, who for some inexplicable reason gets rebuffed- the poor thing cried when it first saw him. When he finally resorts to feeding the sloth bits of ship's biscuit soaked in rum, he soon wins its friendship but ends up turning it into an alcoholic. Thus leading to a line found nowhere else in literature: "Jack, you have debauched my sloth."
But Stephen is like me - all the nautical terms and explanations just go right over my head and don't lodge. Gluppit the prawling strangles, indeed!
Stephen: The moment you are afloat you become pragmatical and absolute, a bashaw —do this, do that, gluppit the prawling strangles, there—no longer a social being at all.
You start off reading for the "Napoleonic Wars at sea" but then you sort of forget about that and treat it like 'Stephen's Big Natural History Expedition' and 'Jack climbs the ranks' so that the great world-shaking events become background, almost, to the little dramas played out in their world.
HereAndGone
3hr ago
I keep forgetting the Zoomers are now old enough to be making dubious fashion choices of their own. And Alpha are the upcoming new generation!
HereAndGone
3hr ago
Please tell me it was at least (1) his ex wife and (2) this bint wasn't the reason the marriage broke down. Because otherwise, if frying pans were meeting crania, I would not blame the (ex) missus one iota for the idiocy of both (ex) husband and new squeeze.
The_Nybbler
In the game of roller derby, women aren't just the opposing team; they're the ball.
3hr ago
I'm OK with "racialist right" or the euphemistic "dissident right", but "woke right" is just a snarl, an attempt to force an equivalence with the woke left. Further, these people mostly aren't the MAGA right, and the Trump Administration cannot be said to speak for them.
Mihow
Lipstick on a guitar
3hr ago
Well the first two are ‘ this transcends yet IS anime ‘ and the last two ‘ ARE anime ‘ - meaning, just weirdo, brutal insanity. It’s a big part of anime with a long tradition.
Sure I wouldn’t recommend them to an anime non watcher, probably, but Elfin Lied is what got me into anime before even the classics.
AlexanderTurok
Alt-MSNBC
3hr ago
Sewing bras is more conducive to wellbeing than stacking them on a shelf.
Then buy yourself a sewing machine. We shouldn't make national policy choices based on psychological theories like that.
In what world would “picking fruit” be pathetic? I think you are having trouble dissociating the image you have of these things now, with what they would look like if employers didn’t have a semi-slave class. There’s a farm near me where people — college-educated, white, smart — sign up to plant and reap for free. Because in return they get free room and board, and most importantly a social environment filled with other young white people. They work quite hard, then they drink in the evenings and dance and fuck and make music and so on. This is exactly what agricultural work was for nearly all of history.
AlexanderTurok
Alt-MSNBC
3hr ago
So your answer to the question of how White Americans can compete with semi-slave illegal workers is
Why in God's name would you want to?
shoeonfoot
3hr ago
Is "online racialist Right" an endonym? Who are these people?
Turok has a public Twitter account. Many of the people he responds to and interacts with on Twitter would be part of the "online racialist Right". If you're familiar with the term "dissident right", it's basically the same group of people. The primary dividing line between members of this group is the degree to which Jews should be blamed for societies various ills. I don't think that's an unfair characterization and if requested, I can try to put in the effort to cite to these various people and their statements.
atelier
Jimmys: unrustled
4hr ago
Yeah, that's a good start! I just get tired of seeing crime committed by someone with a conviction history that reaches multiple pages even if they're all fairly minor crimes.
coffee_enjoyer
☕️
4hr ago
You’re missing the entire substance of the argument, which is that the reason the QoL of agriculture is too low for natives is because of the migrants. If you deport them all, ag needs workers, ag must increase QoL, it looks more like WOOFing which white people love doing.
If I could immediately hire foreign English-speakers as paralegals, importing them in and keeping them in cramp accommodations and ensure they are afraid of leaving the job because finding work as an illegal is tricky, the paralegal market in America would implode. There would be no American paralegals left. So the American paralegal cannot compete with the migrant worker driven paralegal industry.
Alex is definitely here reading all the comments, yet the only time he ever responds is a 1 sentence dig at what he believes is a mistake a commenter made.
To the dozens of high effort well researched posts, it's radio silence for every single one. Alex has not made a single substantiative response downthread in this thread or any other thread he started.
I'm not sure whether only responding to the very weakest of your opponents counts as a strawman, but it's certainly infuriating.
shoeonfoot
4hr ago
Reality check: Generally, unauthorized farmworkers have had a de facto type of amnesty from immigration officials, who are hesitant to conduct raids on a labor force that supplies food across the nation.
There have been some farm raids under Trump (including a high-profile operation Thursday in California against a marijuana farm), but he mostly backed off widespread farm raids after June 12, when he took to Truth Social and lamented the loss of farm, leisure and hotel-sector labor.
"That was the bat signal to ICE: Leave the farmers alone," one Trump adviser said.
The intrigue: Trump's post that day was made after lobbying by Agriculture Secretary Brooke Rollins.
But it caught three crucial administration players flatfooted: Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem, White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles and Deputy Chief of Staff Stephen Miller, the architect of Trump's aggressive immigration policies.
"Every [Cabinet] secretary can't do that: Go rogue and call the president like this, without any sort of appreciation for competing conversations or ideology," another senior official said.
Inside the room: In White House meetings, Miller took the lead in dialing back the president from moving toward anything that could be branded an "amnesty" program.
One idea that was shot down: a "touchback" program under which laborers illegally in the U.S. would have go back to their nation of origin, get a U.S. work visa there and be able to return here.
For some workers, that would require an exception to current law, which bars re-entry into the U.S. for those who immigrate here illegally and stay for six months or more.
"Stephen is so hardcore that the president almost jokes about it, saying that, 'You could have a person who has been here for 20 years and has a clean record and everyone loves them, and Stephen will say deport them,' " according to one person who heard Trump's remarks.
zeke5123a
4hr ago
If we are talking about the “Maryland Dad” then yeah the guy just coincidentally hung out with MS-13 gangbangers and the tat just looked like an MS-13 tat by happenstance.
shoeonfoot
4hr ago
They do not speak for the "woke right" (which itself is just a snarl term).
What is your preferred term to describe the type of people that James Lindsay characterizes as "woke right"? I don't like the term either, but there is a generally identifiable group of people who @TheAntipopulist labelled "racialist Right" who are pretty much the same people Lindsay labels "woke right".
coffee_enjoyer
☕️
4hr ago
So your answer to the question of how White Americans can compete with semi-slave illegal workers is
-
Go ask around a Waffle House
-
Look around on Craigslist for illegal housing
-
(Ignore remittance payments)
-
(Ignore cultural and early life influences involving manual labor, eg that some of these Hondurans have been doing it since 12)
-
(Ignore crucial cultural factors related to social wellbeing like finding a wife)
quiet_NaN
4hr ago
Relevant mod comment. If you want to say "these are the views of the Trump administration", then say "these are the views of the Trump administration".
Also, what do you mean by the adjective "racialist"? WN defines it as:
A believer or advocate of racialism, the ideology of racial nationalism.
(UK, dated) A racist.
Is "online racialist Right" an endonym? Who are these people? Do they want a white ethnostate in the US? Are they HBD-believers who want to restrict immigration based on what they see as genetic group differences? Did you just want to call them straightforward racist, but knew that this would generate a backslash, so you picked a rare word which strongly implies racism without saying the r-word outright?
On the object level, I think I share most of your opinions about Trump's immigration policy, which I detest. But I do not think you are doing a good job of accurately representing the beliefs of the Right, which is a prerequisite to honestly criticizing them.
I don't think that the Right has a great answer to what will happen to the fruit prices once the migrants who are willing to pick them in shitty conditions for low wages because they can feed their family in their country of origin with these wages are all deported. I think that a significant fraction of the MAGA base imagine that Trump, being a stable genius deal-maker, will simply pull the US into a golden age of prosperity and nobody will worry about fruit prices. The more realistic Trump voters might concede that prices of fruits might skyrocket if the pickers are US citizens earning a competitive wage, but simply see this as a price worth paying to kick the illegal immigrants out. Your framing which includes White druggies kicking their habit getting of their asses and start to pick fruits seems to me to be a minority viewpoint on the Right, to put it charitably.
coffee_enjoyer
☕️
4hr ago
Then consider Japan, which only employs 50k migrants in its agricultural and forestry sector.
People who have the option to be laborers in cities will prefer that to being agricultural laborers
And if there is an absence of agricultural workers, the wages for agriculture go up, meaning the conditions become as desirable as WWOOFing, meaning people return to work in agriculture.
The arbitrary filtering of one of the largest religious groups is silly.
Why? You're the one who filtered down to "college-educated White males" after Turok claimed that high-income whites are moving away from the Republicans, and I'm pointing out that college-educated white men are not only almost evenly split between D and R, but also that more granular data shows divisions among white men based on religious affiliation + level of education, which is relevant for determining how white men are going to vote in the future.
I'm not denying that women are more likely to be leftist in the present era (not historically), but you were wrong when you said women shifted "a lot" towards Harris.
The average has no idea that the country plans to import so many Indians. The average voter has no idea about the statistics related to yearly immigration, like, at all.
I have found that the same people who argue that the United States has been transformed demographically to the point that even small towns are no longer recognizable also say that Americans are ignorant about the scope of immigration.
I don't buy that. I think anyone with a pair of eyes and ears is aware that the U.S. is more linguistically, religiously, ethnically, and racially diverse than it has ever been. So yeah, the Gallup poll and every other immigration-related poll is asking people about "vibes", and the "vibes" are that the average voter is cool with the continuing diversification of America.
The average has no idea that the country plans to import so many Indians.
Sure, but this probably doesn't help your argument because the average person likely overestimates how many Indians there:
When people’s average perceptions of group sizes are compared to actual population estimates, an intriguing pattern emerges: Americans tend to vastly overestimate the size of minority groups. This holds for sexual minorities, including the proportion of gays and lesbians (estimate: 30%, true: 3%), bisexuals (estimate: 29%, true: 4%), and people who are transgender (estimate: 21%, true: 0.6%).
It also applies to religious minorities, such as Muslim Americans (estimate: 27%, true: 1%) and Jewish Americans (estimate: 30%, true: 2%). And we find the same sorts of overestimates for racial and ethnic minorities, such as Native Americans (estimate: 27%, true: 1%), Asian Americans (estimate: 29%, true: 6%), and Black Americans (estimate: 41%, true: 12%).
White Americans probably think there are way more Indians than there are and they're still going to elect Vivek Ramaswamy as the next governor of Ohio.
Yeah, that's exactly the crux of the issue. Lots of these people have claimed that some Trump move - bombing Iran, not releasing the Epstein client list, granting amnesty to farmers - will irrevocably sunder the Trump coalition and that their position is the true MAGA position and anything else would be a betrayal to the voters, but I think MAGA is whatever Trump says it is.
If Trump announced some kind of amnesty for farm workers, that would be MAGA. If Trump announced that "mass deportations" never meant every single illegal, that would also be MAGA.
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