domain:rifters.com
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
6hr ago
Arresting people is always going to generate the possibility of "bad optics" if the media wants to portray it as bad.
This. If the media wanted to, they could run non-stop coverage of deranged leftists screaming at stone-faced ICE agents before assaulting the purported fascist stormtroopers. They could do wall-to-wall coverage of the attacks against feds, complete with interviews with crying wives and mothers.
anti_dan
6hr ago
The government is deploying the military because of civil violations. Other types of civil violations involve running a red light, building a deck without a permit, accidentally spilling a small amount of pollutants, filing your taxes late (this is closest), letting your dog roam unleashed. If they are merely enforcing the current law, why in this manner? Does or should the military repel down helicopters to clear entire buildings and check everyone's tax documents on the presumption of guilt? Why is it doing differently here? If the law is wrong, why are they not changing regulations etc.?
If this kind of violence was being deployed against the EPA enforcing its anti-deck regulations during the Obama administration what do you think the result would be? I expect multiple governors would already have been arrested.
anti_dan
6hr ago
States rights has never been about preventing the feds from enforcing legitimate federal laws. It has been about saying certain laws are illegitimate (not applicable to immigration), certain laws are unwise on the federal level (same), and that the federal government can't force states to enforce laws they dont consider moral (also no applicable unless there is a new U of I Law Review article I am unaware of arguing arson, aggravated battery, and and attempt murder should be decriminalized).
quiet_NaN
7hr ago
I do not think that the South seceded because they thought that Lincoln would shoot them up a la John Brown. They simply seceded because their elite's wealth was dependent on slavery, and it was clear that Lincoln would abolish slavery. Slavery was first defeated at the ballot box, and the cartridge box only did its part after Fort Sumter.
Refusing to follow court orders to desegregate a school or stop administering poll tests was also a civil issue. Failing to show up for Court is a civil matter.
At the end of the day, the relevant issue is not the category of violation but its social importance. It is not necessary or desirable to criminally charge most immigration violators. It is more than sufficient to support them. But it is necessary and important that this enforcement occur. We got to this point by permitting far too little enforcement of the law. Imagine a society where it was rare to arrest people for failure to appear. Consider how little respect for the courts there world be and how this might affect the orderly administration of society.
anti_dan
7hr ago
As far as I can tell nothing is preventing Congress from passing a law to make it mandatory, other than "congress has decided it no longer needs to do its job".
Congress is doing its job of being partisan. Democrats do not want E-Verify to work, so they oppose legislation that would make it work. That isn't not doing your job, its just doing your job in a way that gets stagnant results. The fact that large numbers of Democratic voters prefer a functioning E-Verify, and overwhelming numbers of Republican voters prefer it is of no moment if they do not punish at the polls non-compliance with that desire. Republican voters have carried out that displeasure via Trump, Cotton, etc. Democrat voters have not punished this specific non-compliance with their expressed policy desires, so the elite Democratic party position remains unchallenged in law until enough voters get angry to put 60 yes votes in the senate.
anti_dan
7hr ago
If he was in the hospital ICE would have gone to a judge and obtained a hospital order wherein they explained to the judge why he could not be brought to court for his initial court appearance. The judge then changed his/her mind after this situation continued for such a long time that he/she deemed it unreasonable given the state of the case. Your ignorance of criminal law has allowed you to be propagandized.
Zephyr
7hr ago
As someone who leans more to states rights than not - I don’t think it is, actually.
The usual answer would be that each level of government is responsible for what only it can handle, and nothing more (in an ideal world). Territorial Sovereignty (whether that be through border control, military action, international trade, etc) are exactly the sort of things a federal government should be the authority on.
That being said, I’m Canadian, and I have no idea if that’s how it works out in practice in the US - but it is at least not inconsistent.
anti_dan
7hr ago
E-Verify is currently very easy to circumvent and would require an act of Congress, aka 60 senators, to fix. The current batch of senators cannot cobble together 60 who will vote for a clean continuing resolution because sunset provisions for a free money from the sky provision are going into effect.
SkoomaDentist
The Greater Finnish Empire
7hr ago
One obvious potential explanation: Gay men don't have to care about what women think of them.
anti_dan
7hr ago
There's a million ways he could've implemented the ICE program, and he chose one with the greatest optics of cruelty. Masked and armed bouncers dragging people away at gunpoint has horrible optics. There are documented cases of people being deported to random nations, a few people have been disappeared (from public tracking, limiting a family's visibility into where a loved one is) and there's a general allergy to due process. Horrible optics.
I dont think there is much evidence supporting this assertion. Arresting people is always going to generate the possibility of "bad optics" if the media wants to portray it as bad. Illegal immigrants are concentrated in cities that are run by Democrats. With not just passive resistance by Democratic governments, but often active participation in the thwarting of law enforcement actions, things would always have progressed to this point unless Trump just went along with the program and continued to not enforce immigration law. You had that judge in Wisconsin smuggling away an illegal in court, but court is the most orderly place to arrest ANYONE! They already went through a voluntary weapons screening and/or are already in custody and have been searched. So, no. He isn't going to the max, he's barely doing the minimum proscribed by law.
only under the pure assumption that it happens, no implication meant as to the probability - if you think it hasn't happened yet, roughly how long until it does?
The American government apparatus has to actually be broken, not merely wounded but smashed. No rich country with a strong government has had a civil war without extraordinary pressure from outside. Rich countries are stable because the government is so strong compared to anyone else, power is uneven and imbalanced. They have huge security forces and loyal armies. Military coup, yes! Civil war, no! Whereas Nigeria is poor and the central government is very weak, easy to have civil wars there since the country is balanced between different power groups.
Germany at the end of WW1 - mass famine, megadeaths on the front, kaiser has given up, traditional authorities greatly delegitimized. Then you get a brief civil war as the freikorps show up and poleaxe communists. It was basically still an unbalanced country but under extreme stress the communists came out and got demolished by the army. In Maoist China, the Cultural Revolution saw militias fighting in the streets with tanks and heavy weapons but it still wasn't a civil war as the govt retained control. In Venezuela there's massive economic problems but the govt is unbroken, no major alternate power bases.
Yugoslavia is a special case where it's this anomalous composite of various nations who hate eachother intensely, propped up by Tito, a Great Man and the Cold War economics of being a 'neutral' power in Europe, courted by both sides. Yugoslavia was a balanced country with separate power bases. The Balkans were proper wars with armies, not low-level stuff like Northern Ireland.
America is imbalanced, there are no major power bases outside the central government. The state national guard aren't real armies and states don't truly hate eachother. Hundreds of millions of privately owned guns but no organization makes the guns totally irrelevant, they could not matter less. Owning guns didn't prevent machinegun bans or Patriot Act or mass surveillance or anything else. On ethnic lines, blacks are no good at fighting, they're no match for whites in numbers or organization. Hispanics aren't particularly resentful or good at fighting either. Plus there's an extra stabilizing factor of the nuclear forces, the serious players aren't going to start fighting with the sword of Damocles hanging over their heads, they'll choose restraint and stability. America is also very very rich and that's another stabilizing factor.
1990s Russia - economic depression, illegitimate govt, dubious elections, very unpopular president gets into a power struggle with parliament, president shells parliament into submission, no civil war. Unbalanced country, army and security forces are all united. It's very hard to break the power of a strong, rich government. Yes, Russia in the 1990s was rich. Rich is in an absolute sense of being industrialized, urban, there are televisions and electrification... not a relative sense.
So if a civil war were to happen in America, China needs to suplex the US in the Pacific, smash national myths about American exceptionalism. There needs to be an economic depression, maybe even a famine (Yellowstone going up?) There needs to be a massive, unprecedented economic crisis and delegitimization of old authorities. Somehow the central government needs to be split up or fall into different camps.
Or more likely, some black swan arrives and changes all the rules. I just don't see a civil war happening in the US.
anti_dan
7hr ago
They were guilty, he was also guilty. The confession of the 6th person is the only exculpatory evidence for the CP5 and carries zero weight with me considering the situation he was already in.
FlyingLionWithABook
Has a C. S. Lewis quote for that.
7hr ago
“Disappeared” is what the NKVD did, what ICE is doing is called “arresting”. If you say people are being disappeared, you’re saying it has gotten to the point of being as bad as the NKVD!
quiet_NaN
7hr ago
From where I stand, the main difference between blue and red seems to be that one generally does not like to deport illegals, and the other is only deporting illegals in sectors where it will not wreck the economic sector of their constituents.
Also, prosecutorial discretion is basically the name of the game of Trump's DoJ. Why waste taxpayer money on prosecuting crypto traders when it is so much more lucrative to make them just buy Trump's shitcoins and see their legal trouble evaporate?
The idea that it is imperative to enforce any law on the book seems silly. Sure, I would prefer if laws just got struck (ideally automatically unless the legislature re-ups them) when they fell out of use, because selective enforcement is a tool of the tyrant, but it if a law is bad then it is better to ignore it than to enforce it.
The US had sodomy laws in force until the SC put an end to them in 2003 (and are still kept on the books by 12 states, including your usual suspects). Blasphemy laws remain on the books in six states, also unenforceable
I may be going out on a limb here, but from the context of Lawrence, it does not sound like even Texas had a big Butt Sex Prevention Task Force in 1998. My guess it that GWB mostly did exactly what you accuse the blues of doing: not enforcing a law which he found not to be politically relevant to enforce.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
7hr ago
When the NKVD showed up at your apartment in the dead of night and took you away, nobody saw or heard you again. That was proper disappearing!
Ok, I admit I don't have any documented examples of people being disappeared without a trace by ICE and never heard from again. I don't think things have to get to the point of "literally as bad as the NKVD" for us to go "wait a second this is not good and I want to see less of this" though.
RandomRanger
Just build nuclear plants!
8hr ago
very nuanced ad
Mayor Koch has stated that hate and rancor should be removed from our hearts. I do not think so. I want to hate these muggers and murderers. They should be forced to suffer ... Yes, Mayor Koch, I want to hate these murderers and I always will. ... How can our great society tolerate the continued brutalization of its citizens by crazed misfits? Criminals must be told that their Civil Liberties End When an Attack On Our Safety Begins!
This is good and correct, actually. Muggers and murderers should suffer. This is the foundation of justice. Why should Trump or anyone else be nuanced about this, where nuance means 'being really nice to everyone even if they're actively sabotaging and robbing you, give them a second chance, a third chance, a thirtieth chance'. It's cooperate-bot behaviour. Cooperate-bots lose most of the time, it's a very vulnerable and pathetic strategy. What about the nuance of 'be nice to those who are nice to you and punish those who harass you', there's actual nuance and distinction there.
Again, 2 million immigrants are gone in the last 9 months. Where price doubling?
The price doubling will happen when the illegal immigrant laborers and workers are actually removed. The Trump administration just isn't doing anything about the immigrant workforce because keeping the costs of basic staples down is a higher priority than actually delivering on removing immigrants - remove the migrant workers and prices will increase because the jobs currently being performed by illegal immigrants will have to be done legally, which means paying at the very least minimum wage and respecting basic workplace health and safety laws. If an American breaks their back working on your farm, you're actually responsible. If an illegal immigrant breaks their back working on your farm they're fucked and you don't have to pay anything, which keeps costs down.
Look, I'm extremely pro deportation of illegal immigrants and foreign workers/scabs - but you actually have to do it! Trump just isn't removing the illegal immigrants who are the biggest problem because the entire American domestic economy is resting on their backs. The "deal" that society accepted with regards to illegal immigrants in the past was that they would dramatically drive down labor costs by being exempt from employment law/minimum wages etc, which would in turn make all sorts of things less expensive. It was a bad dead, it was always a bad deal, but you're just being dishonest if you don't think there are real tradeoffs involved here. In order for the working class and heritage Americans to have good jobs picking fruit, that fruit is going to have to cost more than when it was picked by an imported serf.
(edited for clarity)
erwgv3g34
8hr ago
The conservative view seems to be that if we got rid of all the illegals farmers would pay more and Americans would do it, of which I am skeptical.
I mean, at some point one of three things is going to happen.
- The price of farm labor will climb high enough that Americans will do it.
- The price of farm labor will climb high enough that it will be cheaper to automate it, unless 1 happens first.
- The price of farm labor will exceed the price people are willing to pay for the food and the farm will go under, unless 1 or 2 happen first.
FiveHourMarathon
Wawa Nationalist
8hr ago
At the end of the day, though, it's a circular story with a lot of repetition, and the things that made it so transgressive and compelling aren't really that unique nowadays.
I think it's exactly as, if not more, transgressive than it was at the time. The central argument of the story is "Who is the manly man and who is the cuckold?" And I don't think we have any better of an answer now than we had then.
FiveHourMarathon
Wawa Nationalist
8hr ago
Some out of the box candidates, seen from a high school textbook in the year 2525, if man is still alive, if woman can survive...:
-- The PATRIOT Act. "The First American Republic was slowly destroyed as the relationship between the population and the government became increasingly adversarial, with surveillance and control mechanisms raising tensions ultimately leading to the Third American Civil War, which ended at the Battle of Chicago with the announcement of the Greater North American Barony..."
-- NWA's Fuck Tha Police. "The song translated the alienation between ethnic black communities and the police into the mainstream of white youth culture, and despite numerous efforts the lack of sympathy between citizens and armed forces and security services lead to the development of increasing within-caste identification and endogamy, ultimately giving rise to the brief American Mamluk regime after their victory at the Battle of Chicago, the collapse of which resulted in the permanent rise of the American Caste System."
-- The Bailout. "The reality that both political parties sided with the large capital and ownership class against the peasantry lead to increasing acts of violence against corporate targets, with the Occupy Wall Street, Black Lives Matter, January 6th Movement, which culminated in the Luigi Cult Assassinations which precipitated the Second American Civil War and the events of the Chicago Commune..."
-- The Cubs victory in the 2016 World Series. "The breaking of the Billy Goat Curse ushered in a period of chaos which lasted until Wrigley Stadium burned down during the Battle of Chicago. As a result, while the Cubs are allowed to remain in Major League Baseball, their salary cap allocation is set at a quarter of the other teams in the league, in order to prevent a repeat of the prior astrological crises."
-- The Election of an Illegal Immigrant Dreamer District Attorney in a Purple State*. "White American Citizens refused to obey laws enforced by a prosecutor they did not consider to have a legitimate claim to live in the country let alone enforce its laws. Signs appeared outside police stations reading 'I'm not even supposed to BE HERE' and 'Does she even go here?' Tensions escalated as citizens began refusing to participate in the justice system: conservative whites because they refused to recognize the authority of the district attorney's office, while poor blacks took advantage of this to continue their long running rivalry with the police force. The combined force of white and black protests ultimately sparked the Battle of Chicago..."
*I'm not going to go into too much detail here, but I know at least a dozen DREAMers who are ADAs in large cities.
Markass
8hr ago
The law is trying to change culture, when culture must change before the law does. I think porn is too normalized in today's culture, owing to sexual liberation and the toaster fucker problem. Trying to ban it won't work when people still want porn. The problem is that it's acceptable to talk about jerking off to porn as if it's something that should be encouraged rather than getting it on with a real person.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
8hr ago
Q: What should employers do if an immigration enforcement agent seeks to enter the employer’s place of business?
A: Employers, or persons acting on behalf of the employer, shall not provide “voluntary consent” to the entry of an immigration enforcement agent to “any nonpublic areas of a place of labor.”
This provision does not apply if the agent enters a nonpublic area without the consent of the employer or other person in control of the place of labor or if the immigration enforcement agent presents a judicial warrant. In addition, employers are not precluded from taking an agent to a nonpublic area if all of the following are met: (1) employees are not present in the nonpublic area; (2) the agent is taken to the nonpublic area for the purpose of verifying whether the agent has a judicial warrant; and (3) no consent to search the nonpublic area is given in the process.
See Government Code Section 7285.1.Q: What does it mean to provide “voluntary” consent to the entry of an immigration enforcement agent?
In general, for consent to be voluntary, it should not be the result of duress or coercion, either express or implied.
An example of providing “voluntary” consent to enter a nonpublic area could be freely asking or inviting an immigration enforcement agent to enter that area. This could be indicated by words and/or by the act of freely opening doors to that area for the agent, for instance.
Whether or not voluntary consent was given by the employer is a factual, case-by-case determination that will be made based on the totality of circumstances in each specific situation.
This law does not require physically blocking or physically interfering with the entry of an immigration enforcement agent in order to show that voluntary consent was not provided.Q: What should employers do if an immigration enforcement agent tries to access, review, or obtain employee records?
A: Employers, or persons acting on behalf of the employer, shall not provide “voluntary consent” to an immigration enforcement agent “to access, review, or obtain the employer’s employee records.” This provision does not apply if the agent accesses, reviews, or obtains employee records without the consent of the employer or other person in control of the place of labor. In addition, exceptions to this provision apply if: • The immigration enforcement agent provides a subpoena for the employee records; or • The agent provides a judicial warrant for the employee records; or • The employee records accessed, reviewed, or obtained by the immigration enforcement agent are I-9 Employment Eligibility Verification forms and other documents that are requested in a Notice of Inspection issued under federal law.Q: Does AB 450 require employers to defy federal requirements?
A: No. Compliance with AB 450 does not compel any employer to violate federal law. Rather, it may require employers in some instances to decline requests for voluntary cooperation by federal agents. However, the statute makes clear that its provisions only apply “[e]xcept as otherwise required by federal law” and do not restrict or limit an employer’s compliance with any memorandum of understanding governing use of the federal E-Verify system.
That, again, seems fine? My impression is that the stuff about voluntary vs involuntary search is that it mainly has to do with what evidence is admissible in court - law enforcement agents are going to be able to go where they want whether or not your cooperation is voluntary.
And in terms of documents, documents that are actually relevant to work eligibility are already covered as things that employers should cooperate with if there's an administrative warrant. My understanding is that what you can't do is hand over the Workday login to ICE and invite them to go on a fishing expedition unless you are compelled to do so.
All that said I am not a lawyer, maybe I'm reading the law wrong? ChatGPT agrees with my interpretation when I ask it, but it also agrees with your interpretation when I ask it.
SkoomaDentist
The Greater Finnish Empire
8hr ago
blames other women who show off the goods for free for making men want that kind of sex.
Just wait a year or three until the free image and video models manage to combine decent prompt understanding with uncensored training material and stock up on popcorn.
We had this argument repeatedly during the "Maryland Dad" fiasco. The best example people could come up with for malfeasance was a missed piece of paperwork before quite properly deporting a human smuggling, wife-beating gang banger.
Napkin math suggests ICE is the most properly functioning government agency of all time. I'm honestly kind of shocked that there hasn't been any proper travesties.
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