domain:papyrusrampant.substack.com
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
2hr ago
The habeas corpus petition was filed on September 30. He was detained on August 27. That's a solid month. How long do you think is appropriate to hold someone without charging them?
That wasn't the question. The question is whether he was disappeared. He was not. I do not know why it took a month to file the petition.
It's quite possible ICE did wrong here. What they did not do is disappear someone.
My non expert reading is that the judge is pissed at a level that is not normal.
I don't much care. Performative pissyness from judges seems to be pretty standard in political cases, and doesn't stop the judges from being overruled.
Mantergeistmann
2hr ago
My mom still has a painted Harris/Walz rock (?) in her back garden.
My stepmother named a beloved houseplant "Kamala".
ulyssessword
2hr ago
"...moral duty to resist them" can definitely stretch to treason. I don't think the recent attacks on the convoy or facility count (they're regular crime instead), but scale it up by 100x and it would.
It could also mean something as milquetoast as refusing to volunteer information and help, which is completely protected conduct.
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
2hr ago
They also haven't seen and/or haven't thought about how law enforcement is done. It's often brutal, because you're trying to catch people who don't want to be caught and make them do things they don't want to do. It's also often far more brutal than it has to be, but most of the time you can't tell if it is that just by looking at a few short videos. Dragging people away at gunpoint is part of what law enforcement does, and indeed there are many circumstances where they are masked when doing so. I object to most of ICEs masking, but I don't believe for a second that the objection here would go away or become significantly less strident if they didn't do so.
daguerrean
2hr ago
…no? Prohibition was totally legitimate, attacking random police officers during prohibition would’ve been very wrong too.
BurdensomeCount
Unable to escape TheMotte's cycle of Samsara...
2hr ago
The same argument applies equally well to supporting Prohibition, however I'd wager you see the fight against Prohibition and its reduction in freedom as a good one.
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
2hr ago
As quiet_NaN points out, there was DNA evidence connecting the other man to the rape; there was no such evidence connecting the CP5 to it. Without a time machine we won't know for sure, but to me it looks more likely than not that they didn't attack that particular woman. That they weren't good people and were committing serious crimes against other people that day is also likely true, however.
cjet79
2hr ago
I also don't care about whatever algorithmic rage bait slop event you're talking about.
This is what he is referring to: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Lincoln_Memorial_confrontation
I'd not describe it as rage bait slop.
It was genuinely upsetting that much of twitter at the time came to the conclusion of "this kid should be punched in the face". I specifically remember the comedian Patton Oswalt saying something along those lines.
MadMonzer
Epstein Files must have done something really awful for so many libs to want him released.
2hr ago
If we are talking about well-behaved gainfully-employed illegals in blue cities like Chicago (which is where the ICE raids causing the fuss are focused), then nobody is imposing. The illegals are in a place where their landlords, bosses, butchers, bakers etc. as well as a super-majority of the community are perfectly comfortable to have them there. The people who don't want them are the people (almost entirely from outside said blue cities) who voted for Trump.
Now as a matter of positive law, this particular group of intermeddling non-Chicagoans and the federal government they elected do in fact have the legal right to send goons into Chicago to round up and remove the illegals. But that only affects the morality of the immigrants' behaviour if you think there is a moral obligation to obey permissibly-dumb-but-not-evil laws in a democracy. I do, but my impression is that most Motteposters subscribe to the libertarian view that there there is no such obligation. Even if breaking laws is immoral, peacefully breaking immigration laws is immoral on the level of filesharing or handling salmon suspiciously*, not on the level of victimful crimes like burglary, so "abhorrent" seems excessive.
* "Handling a salmon in suspicious circumstances" is, somewhat notoriously, a crime in the UK. The purpose of the law is to make it easier to prosecute blatantly guilty poachers like this guy without needing to litigate the provenance of a specific salmon.
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
2hr ago
· Edited 1hr ago
ATF agents' main job is violating the Second Amendment to the US Constitution. ICEs main job is enforcing immigration law, and there's no "open borders" provision to the US Constitution, so no, one does not imply the other.
Skeletor
2hr ago
Seriously, is it just the scary masks or do you actually think it's a crime against humanity to expect anyone to live in Mexico?
The_Nybbler
If you win the rat race you're still a rat. But you're also still a winner.
2hr ago
Treason is making war against the United States or adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. Despite some attempts at stretching this to call illegal immigrants in general "enemies", that doesn't cover opposing ICE. But it does imply an full open borders position, which is not very popular in the US.
roystgnr
2hr ago
If you go to his Google Scholar page and look at the list by citation count it's topped by fiction ("I, Robot": 2670 citations), then adds popular science writing ("Asimov's biographical encyclopedia of science and technology", 663) and other non-fiction, then eventually gets down to science textbooks ("Biochemistry and human metabolism", 54) and science research ("Acid‐phosphatase activity of normal and neoplastic human tissues", 48).
IIRC it could have been even worse. He went into biochemistry, so was relatively immune to the quantum chemistry revolution sweeping upward through the field, but I recall him describing the horror with which experienced chemists discovered that they would have to practically get a second degree in physics just to keep their own chemistry research relevant.
It's kind of a shame that he's now much better-known for his science fiction writing than his science writing, though. He jokingly had the "Clarke-Asimov treaty", acknowledging Asimov to be the second-best SF writer and Clarke the second-best science writer, but IMHO with SF Asimov was (among their contemporaries) second-best to Heinlein, whereas with pop science he really was the best around.
NunoSempere
2hr ago
In Europe! But not in South America!
pigeonburger
2hr ago
but it does, almost tautologically, mean that they are giving off a scary hatable vibe.
I would surmise that the majority of americans have not seen an ICE officer performing their duty in real life, only through videos that are cherry-picked, contextualized and characterized by a hostile media. In that context, the vibe around them is definitely not something that they are tautologically giving off, but something that could be constructed around them.
Gillitrut
Reading from the golden book under bright red stars
3hr ago
Maybe it is but morality does not require "never do a treason." The founding of America was substantially treason against the British crown and they were right to do that.
helmut_hofmeister
3hr ago
Hospitals are also obsessed with billing and a month long stay costs a fortune. Even if patient has insurance the ins co would object. It’s at least a red flag.
ArjinFerman
Tinfoil Gigachad
3hr ago
For one, I don't see why you need any of that evidence.
When people tell me it exists, I like taking a look.
The optics suck, you can tell they suck because they're terrible. You can tell they suck because people are shooting at ICE officers.
If you get shot, does it mean your optics suck, or does it maybe say more about the person doing the shooting?
This was an incredibly popular electoral issue. He crushed the election on it. Now he's underwater on it. I wonder why???
Polls generally are a lame argument, and I'm even more puzzled about why you think the names of The Economist and Nate Silver specifically should carry any weight with me.
By the way, did you just type out the same 2-3 paragraphs in 3 different comments? Are you ok?
Tiber727
3hr ago
Generally yes, more so because in today's day and age we can indefinitely keep someone in jail for the off chance that they are later exonerated (and given the amount of red tape to go for the death penalty I think life in prison is cheaper).
But I said this more because of the motivation of the situation. If the context is along the lines of wishing a politician that is not even on trial gets a trial with the specific outcome of the death penalty, I think you've cast your thinking far enough ahead that you want to see the person dead.
themig
3hr ago
The only freedom at threat is the freedom to be an illegal immigrant, which is what Americans voted to see persecuted.
BurdensomeCount
Unable to escape TheMotte's cycle of Samsara...
3hr ago
ICE is even worse than the ATF in terms of how much freedom it destroys, if you hate the ATF you should hate ICE even more.
quiet_NaN
3hr ago
Generally, I place very little trust in confessions, little trust in eyewitness accounts and a lot of trust in technological evidence.
We know that Reyes raped her. It is reasonable to assume that this was the same incident in which she was also murdered. We know that there is no DNA evidence linking any CP5 to the rape, which is at least strong circumstantial evidence that they did not rape her.
The accepted standard for criminal convictions is "beyond reasonable doubt". So the prosecutor had to convince the jury that the police had reconstructed the crime correctly. I doubt they told the jury "or perhaps some unknown third party raped her, we don't really know". We know that the police had done no such thing.
So we have cops who extracted confessions which were later falsified in the details, and sold them as the truth. This puts really sharp limits on the trust we can place on the police investigation.
Now, it is technically possible that they were randomly directionally correct and framed the guilty party minus one. But even if they were, the penalty for investigatory misconduct in the US is generally that the gathered evidence gets thrown out, which sets the correct incentives.
WandererintheWilderness
3hr ago
I don't think faul_sname meant that the reaction is overwhelmingly negative. But if the positive reactions are along the lines of "hell yeah! make illegals afraid!" rather than "ah, normal policemen doing their work normally, how neat and orderly" then it's still support for the claim that ICE is deliberately projecting an image of themselves as scary chaotic mofos. Which they are. You might very well think that's a good thing because it'll intimidate illegals into self-deporting, but "ICE are scary goons" isn't left-wing slander, it's the image they're deliberately leaning into because that's what Trump's base wants them to do.
MadMonzer
Epstein Files must have done something really awful for so many libs to want him released.
4hr ago
· Edited 3hr ago
If there is one single issue I think you will have trouble rallying cops to kill feds for I really think, "Actually we don't need to allow law enforcement to use greater force on criminals and we should decriminalize even more vagrancy and brazen public lawlessness" is it.
If local cops start shooting at feds, it is going to be because the feds are engaging in hostile and warlike acts in their communities. Trump talks about sending troops into cities to quell general lawlessness, but apart from DC he has not done so - the facts on the ground are entirely about immigration enforcement.
The MO of ICE is to seal off an area, arrest everyone vaguely Hispanic-looking, detain the citizens for a few hours and most of the legal immigrants overnight to show who's boss, and throw the illegal immigrants and a few legal immigrants for good measure into immigration detention for eventual deportation. There is enough of a pattern that I think we can assume this is policy. If you are a Hispanic-looking citizen, or a legal immigrant, or the friend, pastor, employer, or local political leader of such people, you are going to interpret this as violent hostility to your community, because it is. The MAGA base who are cheerleading the immigration enforcement operations on right-wing social media are not hiding the fact that they would be happy deporting legal immigrants and non-heritage-American citizens if the opportunity arose. The federal legality of these tactics is currently being litigated - if ICE are exceeding their authority under federal law then as a matter of state law they are committing all the crimes.
The South Shore apartment raid in Chicago is an escalation, both in terms of the tactics (SWAT tactics were used, including doors kicked in in the middle of the night) and the targets (the Blacks were arrested as well as the Hispanics). And a deliberate one - Kristi Noem put out a celebratory Youtube video. It doesn't look like ICE stole enough to matter this time, but the nature of rapidly-recruited and poorly-trained goons is that if this type of operation continues ICE are probably going to start stealing from US citizens on a large scale due to poor discipline, even if it isn't policy. If and when that happens, local cops shooting at feds who are also robbers and kidnappers seems plausible, particularly in core cities where the local police are more black tribe than red.
The other factor is that ICE can burn through any goodwill they have with local police by acting like arseholes. Too many incidents of accidentally tear-gassing cops or calling 911 on journalists and actually-peaceful protestors would bring the "local cops willing to obey an order from the governor/mayor to shoot at feds" point forward. At the margins even garden-variety assholism like driving recklessly and parking illegally when off-duty (almost all cops do this, but their getting away with it when outside their local jurisdiction is controversial) hurts.
tl;dr: Local cops are going to be sympathetic to feds engaging in immigration enforcement, but the degree of collateral damage that local cops are willing to tolerate is a lot lower than the level of collateral damage Trump's people seem to be aiming for. It is possible but unlikely that this will reach the point where local cops are willing to shoot at feds.
Does that practically bar South Koreans from watching porn?
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