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Notes -
SEX AND THE BIG CITY
or
THE LAST UNINVADEABLE THIRD SPACE
In the digital age of escorts on demand and cheap flights to indulge in sex tourism, why would adult entertainment venues that offer sex-adjacent services persist, when one can get your rocks off for a much cheaper price? In observed practice within Asia, these venues exist not for booze and girls, but for establishing membership in the brotherhood: you are in our world now, and the initiation is sin.
This came about after I made a post about the adult entertainment scene in Singapore in a necro'ed thread when I saw @Pasha complain about the lack of visible seediness in one of Singapores premier red light districts. Details about the mechanics therein can be found here for context and to provide a primer for my below.
https://www.themotte.org/post/981/smallscale-question-sunday-for-april-28/211124?context=8#context
So what is this brotherhood mentioned up top? Basically it can be summed up as 'I need to know you will not fuck me over when push comes to shove'. This is perhaps foreign to professionalised pseudoacademics where people are best experienced as minimizeable windows on a zoom call, but in professions relating to physical goods and services, human trust is a shorthand for task success: better to get shit done with someone you know has your back than to waste tims searching for the MBA approved 'best fit'.
This is not limited to physical tradespeople like laborers and soldiers, but includes B2B sales professionals, commodity traders, shipbrokers, construction/civil engineering. In these environments, decision makers responsible for multi million dollar trades and projects care less about saving a rounding errors worth of marginal savings in favor of knowing who to yell at when shit goes tits up.
In the KTVs and Indian Dance Clubs and Thai Discos in Singapore, the patrons are often groups of men, usually professionals in the same cluster. Oil traders and refinery site managers, construction project managers and engineers with their lawyers and bankers, shipbrokers with agents. The booze and the women show up, the mens wallets open up, but more importantly their mouths open too. Industry gossip is adjacent to insider activity, and being part of these networks gives incredible insight into the movements and activities of not just the people in that group you are with but those groups they are part of as well. By joining or initiating these activities, an opportunity is presented to quickly establish a bond with the other men present, to immediately let it he known that you can be called upon when needed. There is incredible power to be had when you are one of the first names on the tips of powerful peoples fingers, and for many punters a successful night is not when your dick gets wet but when you get the phone number of a useful contact.
So why the sex revue? Well it is because of the steady decline of third spaces that have been invaded by credentialed professionals, especially women, who dislike legacy networks that are impenetrable. There are legit professional reasons for this, such as contravening of KYC protocols or tender processes, but for the most part the dislike of legacy networks stems from jealousy. There are plenty of women who have successfully entered halls of power, especially in Thailand and Hong Kong where female scions are groomed for succession by their fathers, but for the most part a lack of trust in these women to bother with handshake agreements leads to their exclusion from networks of power. Thus, the networks must be dismantled as much as possible, starting with removing the exclusivity of their assembly grounds. Male only social clubs have steadily been eroded to be female inclusive, from the Knights of Columbus to Freemasons, and other threads have highlighted youth organizations being the starting point of this rot, with the Boy Scouts being mixed gender while girl scouts remain female exclusive. Whatever organizational benefit there is to opening up the genders, it does mean there are less third spaces for men to discuss the ongoings of power.
Therefore, the last venue is the strip club, the sauna, the banya, the KTV. The men say they are going there to be sexual degenerates, and many often are purely socially retarded men seeking base human interactions, but the true sustenance of these places is being the third place that women have zero interest in demeaning themselves to enter. That alone will ensure their continued presence even as the world gets continually anonymized into the homogenous digital soup: the last bastions of human connections will concentrate under the pressure, hardening its borders to continual external forces till they are fully impenetrable.
Yeah, it's been my impression for quite a while that strip clubs and such in the west are much more about you and your boys than they are about you and the girls. Good posts.
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They most definitely do. At least in Japan where the industry is very visible in the open, there are plenty of single men going for that reason. KTV is less accessible to lone customers, but there are definitely some people who come just for the entertainment.
Being a male safe space is also a big bonus, but it's definitely something that a group of men will tend to want to go to if you put them together and get them drunk.
Because in-person interactive entertainment is nothing like watching a video. And given the market conditions, you can get booze and girls for barely more than the cost of just booze. I don't know why paid parasocial entertainment isn't really a thing in the western world, but I assume that the western man gets his fix by erping with discord anime pfps instead.
As to bar girls, it's very illegal under most states' alcohol laws (the employment of companion-girls, the act of drink solicitation, accepting a drink from a patron, or some combination of all three).
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Superior western capitalism has commodified thottery into cashapp and snaps. Parasocial relationships, without even needing to leave the house.
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It's called "Hololive" (though really, this is streaming culture in general). It's big business, apparently.
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Interesting point.
I've argued elsewhere that martial arts gyms/dojos are pretty much the last bastion of healthy male masculinity that hasn't been invaded by woke culture. Because end of the day, there is simply no amount of social maneuvering that will make up for the strength differential between men and women, and you can't 'fake' martial arts skills without willing participants, which makes entryism nigh-impossible.
But yeah, despite pressure from both sides of the political spectrum, strip clubs and various other sex-adjacent spaces where men can pay to skip the formalities and just get to the T&A do a pretty good job filtering as well.
Implicitly, the females in these spaces are there to look pretty and be quiet (unless it is part of the tease) and this is 'enforced' when they rely on earning tips.
Lefties have given some cover to these places too, by being 'sex-positive,' 'pro-slut,' and 'anti-christian' to the extent they like that dens of vice piss off a certain segment of the right, and (probably) provide a wedge to bring in LGBT matters.
But yeah, the fact that guys can use these places to form reliable partnerships and create networks that aren't so legible while filtering out guys who have hangups that might turn into liabilities later makes them useful.
I would definitely say I prefer the Dojo as the healthy alternative, but if it works and persists across decades, hard to say its doing something 'wrong.'
The sex clubs have certain protections against the segment of the left most eager to ban them that the dojo does not share- specifically, that the left can't both continue to use the concept of sex-positivity as a skin suit and be seen shutting down places that "empowers women" [by that definition] at the same time.
I wouldn't bet on that.
If they can play the "exploiting vulnerable minorities" and "objectification of women" angles they can attack from that side if they want.
Or they can start pushing the "healthy at any size" and "trans women are women!" angle to force said clubs to accept... less enticing employees.
Now, prostitution will continue to exist in spite of any and all attempts to thwart it, but I do think they can make it impossible for such 'third spaces' to exist easily.
The Dojo has the unavoidable barrier to entry of physical fitness, and I've yet to see anyone who can undermine any martial arts/combat system other than by producing a better system (i.e. how BJJ took over MMA for a long time).
Probably I'm not badass enough, or partake in a budo that will be scoffed at, but the head of my Aikido ryu/dojo 's big boss is a (Japanese) woman, and although she's no spring chicken any more, she could throw the hell out of you. My point is that it's toing to depend on the martial art. BJJ is probably going to be more man-centric. You'll find girls at kickboxing and aikido.
You'll find girls doing the kickboxing workouts for cardio. You'll find far fewer that do the version where they're actually getting kicked and punched.
My gym also holds special females-only BJJ classes, which doesn't get ANY pushback from any parties whatsoever about lack of inclusivity because it is better for everyone involved.
As for Akido, I have particular feelings about it as anything other than fun techniques to train.
Is that your video? If so I'll watch it. Otherwise could you give me a quick summary?
Not me.
A guy who became an Akido master and taught akido professionally ultimately shut down his Dojo when he realized that the actual techniques he was teaching would not be effective for his students if they ever had to use it against an aggressive opponent and that the philosophical elements of it were mostly used to distract from this problem.
This was a big deal in that he was a well-known personality in the Akido scene at the time, and he (intentionally) got his ass kicked by an MMA fighter to test his over a decade of experience in Akido. Learns quickly that going for wrist control against a striking opponent doesn't work well, most throws won't work if the opponent resists, and his defense is thwarted easily.
He's gone on to makes a TON of videos where he examines different styles and really tries to test them for their efficacy and see if he can make them work under stress, and honestly assess whether there's any useful knowledge there. Akido really does not measure up, in his estimation.
My general opinion is that Akido is pretty much ballroom dancing with malicious intent. Beautiful to watch, but depends on a willing, coordinated partner to perform as intended.
The lack of strikes, lack of ground game, and general lack of any techniques that damage an opponent suggest, to me, that nobody should use this as their preferred self-defense method.
Although I could be convinced otherwise.
*Aikido
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You can shove any number of ugly 'women' there as you want, you can't force men to select them and a joint that does so simply ceases to make money. The selecting entity in this case is the mamasan curating her stable, not some admin forcing a DEI hire in.
And that is his point isn't it? The place shuts down.
There is no DEI admin forcing fuggos in. Hell I've seen plenty of weirdo looking buck toothed women in a stable. They just don't ever get selected and go home without earning anything. In a pure commission environment its entirely their own volition to stay or go, with of course significant encouragement from a mamasan. If a place shuts down (normally a visa raid) the joint reopens with a new stable about a month later. Like a dozen places shut down three months ago when the mall owner managed to sell off the property and some of my girls happily announced they were going on a 2 month cruise to China as a break, with loyal patrons encouraged to join the fun on the high seas. I am also certain that the cruise bookings were directed to a company set up by a retired mamasan, so its really a full circle of money extraction going on.
I think those are usually called mares.
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Can confirm this is still the place of choice for negotiating government-adjacent contracts. I don't know if that's the same in Finland, but perhaps @Stefferi does.
It doesn't even have to do anything with sexual degeneracy, just the shared experience of men baring it all in front of each other and sharing a drink (or dozen) in a relaxing setting.
Yes, there was recently a bit of hubbub after it turned out that the government had sent four guys representing different parties (instead of, say, the female ministers theoretically in charge of such affairs) to a sauna trip to hammer out various details to the latest austerity package. Here's the Green Party's unofficial online magazine complaining about it (google-translated). However, such sauna sessions would presumably be expected to be chaste (if drunken), there's a bit of a taboo with associating saunas to eroticism in the Finnish culture.
I really like this article that @Stefferi posted, and it highlights the appeal of the third space. This line in particular:
Was raised by the author of the article as a specific reason to object to these sauna deals. I for one hold this type of decision by committee in absolute contempt, especially if it is debated in a public forum. Some grandstanding blowhard endlessly harping about his stupid pet issue about how a major decision must be held back because an impact study on how one particular species of mud beaver is maybe going to be endangered will gum up necessary actions. Every additional participant in a committee increases the risk of some single issue militant holding everything hostage. This is precisely why these backrooms remain attractive: stay beyond the attention of roadblocks and just get shit done.
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Frankly women can enter as well, were it not for the nannying and tutting. The sex adjacent focus in Asia is a combination of degeneracy and ability to exclude schoolmarms. There does exist the interesting female equivalents of private high teas in Hong Kong and johnny bars in Japan where female managers of their husbands wealth end up forming consortiums to buy up Canadian and London property but that is a different tale.
In other words, only
transgenderwomen who are sufficiently divorced from [as perceived by the other gender] their gender's primary flaw can enter this space.That flaw, being (in my opinion/experience) unrestrained anger/disgust, is the GP's point about why
non-transgenderwomen are motivated to destroy male spaces in the first place: they're angry that they have to follow the rules to get anywhere, and something inside them renders them wholly incapable of doing that, so their attempts to simply destroy the space for "reeeeeee"-asons are a natural evolution of that.This isn't to say the standard feminist "all the important things happen in places we're kept out of because something something gender" steelman doesn't still apply (since the primary problem with men is that they're stupid), but that it's almost certainly overblown by people who wish they were more capable than they are; I think it's fascinating that feminist political thought starts with cargo-culting what are effectively transgender behaviors, leading to everyone being shocked to discover that most women aren't transgender, and [the selfish version of] their conclusion was that it's not them that's the problem, it's the notion of gender itself (the productive one was just going out and building other institutions that reinforce transgender behavior in an ostensibly discouragement-free environment; which is why [female division of things men are naturally better at] exist in the first place).
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Country clubs and golf courses in Texas(and probably most of the rest of the south, I’ve just no experience there) have ‘locker rooms’ which have comfy chairs and serve drinks.
I view invitations to hunt and golf being a similar activity, but women in those environs face no barriers to entry. I do not know how this necessarily, if at all, changes the networking dynamics at play.
A relative of mine by marriage works for a bank. He has a banker in his office who doesn't show up to work on Fridays, and upon inquiring why, was informed that this particular banker takes potential clients fishing in his boat instead of going to the office on Fridays, and routinely signs on million dollar accounts by doing so. One has to imagine there are few women on these trips, even for the small business owner world(which realistically most million dollar bank accounts belong to).
All male environs seem conducive to serious business.
As for hunting, hunting trips might be elite display or largess towards poorer male comrades(such as employees or less successful relatives) as often as they are an opportunity for networking among social equals. Exotic game ranches aside, the usual pattern is for one or a very small number of economically successful men(who are already close enough not to need networking amongst themselves) to buy a lease which relatives, longtime friends, employees, etc can use as well. I've not heard of business deals being cut on the deer lease in the same way as on a golf course.
You do it at the bar at the lodge after.
If an actual hunter type businessman invites you on an outing, that's a pretty huge deal. It's also a test. If you can't shut the fuck up for a while, if you get bored and can't focus, if you're cranky in the cold / rain.
Golf Business is much more a direct extension of the boardroom but outside and with beer. Hunting is more.
... Unless they're not actually a hunter and just want to blast away. In which case, you'll be back before lunch.
In the hunting examples I'm thinking about the guy who got shot by dick cheney but still found it worthwhile to go to those retreats after the incident.
I mean ... the game is the game.
You catch a hot one posted up on the corner, you can say "fuck it" and bounce. Or you can step the fuck up and get back in the mix. You do you, playboy. Game gonna stay the game.
--- Dick Cheney (probably)
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I'd be surprised if equal numbers of men and women like hunting and golf. "We have to do this boring and maybe gross thing to network" is still a barrier, if a porous one.
I alluded to it in a previous comment, but I have seen high tea luncheons and to a lesser extent charity committees function the same for Chinese wives who wield their husbands fortunes. There are a large number of management corporations in London and Vancouver where blocks of flats are owned by these wifely consortiums who often rely on a relative staying there to act as the property manager/agent. These also are tens of millions of dollar size deals arrived at over shit conversations men would gnaw their leg off to avoid.
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