This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Trump, in Shock Announcement, Says U.S. Will Take Over Gaza After Permanently Displacing Palestinians
Now there are a few problems with this. One is that Egypt and Jordan, the obvious candidates, are absolutely against it. Second is that it will be horribly embarrassing when an American soldier gets blown up by unexploded American ordnance that was donated to Israel. It's also somewhat incoherent - he's going to make it into some kind of big multicultural party zone?
The US does have lots of leverage over Egypt though, their economy has been on the cusp of collapse for a while now. So maybe Trump's increased willingness to deploy coercion will bear fruit here.
Trump seems to be very interested in acquisitions and land. Maybe it's a legacy thing, or maybe he's just a real estate developer at heart. Possibly Bibi told him words to the effect of "we've got a nice patch of real estate for you on the Med, want to take it off our hands?" and Trump got suckered.
Yup, and in the same meeting Netanyahu gave Trump a gold plated pager and a regular pager as a “gift.” The hostile, esoteric symbolism of Bibi gifting Trump a gold pager is so clear it's infuriating our government is so captured by Israeli influence. A serious leader would have arrested Netanyahu on the spot for that insolence.
I'm fairly certain that that would violate several international treaties.
Isn’t he wanted in most of the free world as a war criminal?
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Today on "nefarious insidious things Jews can't get away with": making a pager joke.
https://archive.is/K67pJ
Dirty laundry of course being an idiom which means “questionable activities that one wants to remain secret, but which someone else may use as blackmail.”
Reading the full article it appears that he is more of a greedy kleptocrat who wants free stuff, rather than a head of state making some devious underlying diplomatic statement. Interesting article though.
Do you really think that Netanyahu, worth $14m, brings his laundry all the way to America to save $6, when his own assistants undoubtedly do laundry for him back home? If this is a genuine belief, why would you think this?
What do you think it is?
Netanyahu doesn’t have it out for the random maid staff that the White House employs. It is just as free if they do laundry in Israel. It is either saying that America launders the dirty secrets of Israel or that Israel’s “dirty laundry” goes through America. Its either criticizing America’s intel sharing or showing symbolic dominance over America such that we do their dirty deeds for them.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Cool it with the anti semitic remarks
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
"Average Gold-Plated AK Fanboy vs. Average Gold-Plated Pager Enjoyer: a History of the Modern Middle-East"
More options
Context Copy link
Obviously the gifts that world leaders give each-other are symbolic. It always has been this way. The idea this is just a joke and there's no underlying symbolism intended by the people who designed and made the gift is just being willfully blind.
Netenyahu selling the idea of the US controlling Gaza while gifting him a gold-plated pager has meaningful underlying symbolism. It's not a joke, it's serious.
The obvious play here is for Trump to gift Netanyahu a gold plated copy of the The Protocols. As a joke, of coarse.
More options
Context Copy link
I think this is more a reflection of the gift's recipient than the gift's giver - would you expect the Israelis to give a golden pager to any other Head of State?
It's a reflection of both, it's layered with meaning. It's flaunting Israel's insolence to someone who is so enamored with Israel he's going to take it in stride.
Part of it is "we totally undermined Biden by just doing stuff and he couldn't stop us, but we really want to work with you so you're in on the joke." When the gift itself is portraying a bomb disguised as an innocuous object, as Netanyahu tries to drag the US into this mess further by appealing to Trump's own proclivities.
What proportion of allied Heads of State haven't done something undignified or distasteful in the interests of catering to Trump's ego? I agree that this was extraordinarily distasteful, but it's pretty low on my list of concerns about Israel, to put it mildly.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Ok. This is though.
Yeah, but the Israelis who designed the gift were obviously being symbolic. The gift represents Israeli deception and Trump itself. The people who designed this gift were aware of this, But Trump is not. It is a mocking threat.
Stop with the antisemetic conspiracy shit. It's just Netanuahu making an edgy present. "Mocking threat" ? Why mock and threaten your best ally? I am almost certain what your reply will be but honestly don't bother.
This degree of tastelessness is befitting a bloodthirsty teenager rather than head of state. I doubt SS' exact interpretation of the symbolism, but to deny that it's symbolic is just not serious. Indeed, you concede it is symbolic since you recognize it as a "joke" about a particular Mossad operation.
P.S.
(Assuming for the sake of argument that this is what was happening) because the nature of relationship isn't an alliance. Israel offers the US and Trump personally nothing except perhaps tolerance. They do not fight your wars, they do not contribute to your war chest. For all intents and purposes the US is simply doing Israel's bidding, and administrations that oppose this get nowhere and are replaced. Not just Biden, but the whole mighty edifice of the Left, wokeness, progressivism, neo-marxism, all those forces the advances of which had caused the creation of this community, crumbled from the aftershocks of Oct 7. If you don't notice this seismic shift I don't know what to tell you.
The same explanation applies if we assume it's a mere edgy joke, however. Simply put, Israel does not act like a small country dependent on its great ally.
TBH, it sounds to me like it may have been intended along the lines of the Pablo Escobar memorabilia that Hank was gifted in Breaking Bad: macabre, but "cool." So, yes, perhaps just an edgy joke.
I think this overstates things a little, we're barely into the first year of Trump's second term and it's not certain that the progressive moment of late has actually passed.
More options
Context Copy link
I will copy paste some parts of my response to SS. ''Israel and the US are allies , the fact that you don't understand how that alliance is expressed and why it's expressed this way is a result of your lack of geopolitical knowledge. Not trying to offend you or anything but you should read more on this''. More specifically to what you are saying , you are incorrect in a number of points . Your first mistake is assuming that alliances mean i fight your wars or contribute to your war chest. This is not a correct, there are other ways for an alliance to be expressed ,especially in the modern world (intelligence , technology , trade etc, cultural similarities). Israel is very technologically innovative and is very culturally similar to the west , and I will follow up in just a second on how important this cultural similarity is so don't dismiss it. Your main mistake is assuming that Israel doesn't fight the US's wars, you are incorrect. The soviet union lost massive influence in the middle east after the Israeli victory in yom kippur , this is one such example. The thing is that the cultural similarity I mentioned before is really important to an actual alliance because it comes down to what people really value. You can't really trust that the geopolitcal interest of fanatical islamists ( who are not a minority in most arab states) will align with yours when it matters, you can't trust that they will inform you of terrorist attacks or be actual allies in whatever conflict you are in. But the truth is you can trust Israel because cultural similarities dictate that when you are fighting they are 'fighting' ( always meaning locally , not referring to a conflict in the pacific for example) when you were fighting Sadam (both times) the Israelis were very happy it was happening and were literally not fighting with you because you asked them not to fight so as not to inflame tensions in the arab world. Iran hates the US and hates Israel , and the Israelis would gladly bomb them , like they did hezbollah who again is an enemy of both the US and Israel. There are a thousand more things I can say but you must disentangle from this idea that being an ally means fighting a war with you, Saudi arabia fought in the first gulf war but the US should never consider them a serious and trusting ally. That may sound a little naive to you but its the truth , alliances are also about cultural similarities which by themselves create an actual almost humanalike relatioship. It is not only cold geopolitical interest that dictates them and you would be very very wrong to think so, in the midst of such differing cultures Israel is a natural US ally whose interests converge with the western entities by default.
More specifically in regards to the pager. Well like I said, hezbollah has shed so much American blood that the instrument of their defeat seems like a valid present.
More options
Context Copy link
As others have noted, its tastelessness seems tailored to the recipient. I would need information about Bibi's presents to other world leaders to figure out if he just does that to everyone or if it's just Trump he thinks would appreciate the "haha the exploding pagers" implication.
And yes, my objection to SS is over the "nefarious lying-but-can't-help-giving-hints Jew" proposed symbolism that's verging on the Illuminati memes, not the fact that there is a meaning beyond "a communication device that's made of gold".
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If the entire pager operation were carried out by Putin on Ukranian forces, and Putin gifted Trump a pager, you would obviously interpret that with symbolism right? So the idea there's no symbolic intent, and it's a meaningless joke, simply because Israel is ostensibly (but not really at all) an "ally" is your own answer to your question: Netanyahu repeatedly demonstrates his contempt for American leadership because he gets away with it and the insolence strengthens his position politically and symbolically.
In this case, Netanyahu appears to have come to give Trump Gaza as a gift as well, along with the gold pager! It's just a continuation of the deceptive relationship between the United States presidency and Netanyahu. The gold pager is symbolic of that relationship. Beware of Netanyahu bearing gifts.
Putin and Trump are enemies because the geopolitical interests of the entities they represent collide, that must be clear right? So any such present between enemies would certainly be interpreted as some kind of subtle threat. So your analogy is problematic since even by your definition Israel and the US are not enemies , just not allies. But in truth your definition is wrong , and Israel and the US are allies , the fact that you don't understand how that alliance is expressed and why it's expressed this way is a result of your lack of geopolitical knowledge. Not trying to offend you or anything but you should read more on this. Netanyahu sometimes has contempt for American leadership because American leadership does sometimes deserve contempt. Biden for example was a weak president ineffective at geopolitics for many reasons and unable to understand what's actually going on. Anyway , I will repeat , the relationship between the US and Israel is certainly an alliance because alot of their interests intersect , that is the essence of an alliance. If you are interested I can go deeper on this.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Those are good questions, and you’re probably correct that SS won’t bother to address them.
I still must ask you to leave off the personal antagonism.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link