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naraburns  nihil supernum  1yr ago (text post)   31782 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of January 2, 2023

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What is causing a kerfuffle is not the number of days she had sex (63)

If it is not causing kerfuffle, then it should. She had sex almost twice as many times as she showered. So she did not shower before or after having sex.

Why should anyone care, exactly? It's not like any of us are having sex with her. If her partners are fine with how she is (and they seem to be, if she's still having success getting some), then good for her I guess.

I care because it is one of the many instances of how the social norms are established and before you know it, it will be your own daughter smelling around the dinner table. I am done with the "live and let live" attitude for all the craziness it brought upon us. I am now all for return of good old shaming/blaming back into town. So yeah, I have no problem calling Aella and any of her partners as disgusting people. Sue me.

Okay. And progressives will use their cultural influence to shame you for not being one of them. You want to swing a dangerous weapon around. It will predictably be turned on you and me.

Everyone already does this. A pacifist in a culture war is a fool.

I don't think that encouraging and normalizing shaming is to our advantage. Encouraging more and worse bad behavior is not a wise action.

Public shaming is a necessary part of a functioning society

I disagree and if true then our near future will be mean progressives publicly shaming wrong thinkers like you and I.

Everyone already does this. A pacifist in a culture war is a fool.

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That seems like conflict theory done only halfway.

I'd say all weapons will be used by all sides that are capable of using them, with no respect for unilateral non-escalation. Progressives will shame conservatives regardless of conservatives refraining from attempting the same, because progressives are currently in a position to quote that piece of the Melian Dialogue: "The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.".

Observing the proprieties while your enemies are biting and gouging is only a winning move if there is some powerful third party who values non-escalation.

Observing the proprieties while your enemies are biting and gouging is only a winning move if there is some powerful third party who values non-escalation.

You seem to be making the mistake that what's important is to win or lose. But as the cliche goes, what matters is how you play the game. I would much rather lose while upholding good moral behavior, than win by sacrificing morals.

It seems like a noble sentiment on the surface, but it does not seem that great when you are hiding in the bushes while the enemies behead your brothers and rape your sisters and aunts. This high-minded morality to me is just a sign of privilege, it is easy to pretend to be "moral" if one is not present with tough choices

Sure, I too prefer to play that way. But you can only lose for so long until you're not even in the game anymore.

Now I don't mean to imply that anyone, conservative or otherwise, necessarily needs to go around shaming people. But I do mean that progressives seem to have no compunctions about it and they're currently winning the culture war so decisively that they increasingly get to dictate the conditions for social participation, and for conservatives to worry about whether shaming might be used against them if they were to attempt to employ it against progressives is, in my opinion, missing several points.

What good moral behaviour is being maintained by avoiding the use of shaming tactics? I would be surprised if there were many people who were against the use of shaming absolutely, in all contexts.

"If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?"

Nietzsche asked:

Is it better to out-monster the monster or to be quietly devoured?

If your morals lead you to be devoured by the monster, for no benefit to anyone except monsters, then what good are those morals?

For my good. It's better to be a good person, even at great material costs, than to engage in vice to get ahead.

This is too glib. What is Vice in this context? Is it a vice to commit an evil that you believe is necessary to achieve a just outcome? It wouldn't be a vice to lie to the Nazis about the jews in your attic, right? Is it a vice to maintain a MAD nuclear deterrent? Is it a vice to use the enemy's own tools to defeat them - even if you would abhor them in any other case?

I can see that from a Christian perspective, with a belief in an eternal reward for choosing non-resistant martyrdom against enemies that wish you harm.

But in ancient Roman the virtues included Virtus, Auctoritas, Dignitas... "Gracefully losing" while your community falls apart would be seen as a vice from this perspective.

Does anyone see aella as a role model?

You, a stranger on the internet, will not achieve anything by "shaming" another stranger on the internet.

Edit (because of much confusion) - Shaming works if the right people shame you in the proper context. For example, a teenage boy might not take a shower ten days in a row if his mom tells him to, but will shower 2x a day for the rest of his life if his crush calls him stinky (even as a joke). Work backward using the demographics of motte users and determine if shaming is a good tactic for the modal motte user.

Your edit is good stuff, but without it your original post is just so wrong as to be jaw dropping. And here, of all places! Honestly, I would be embarrassed if I were you. (Not really, but this post is more about practical application than discussion.)

without it your original post is just so wrong as to be jaw dropping.

Hardly. The original post was obviously correct to me, and it was surprising that others were willing to do confidently (and incorrectly) declare it wrong. The point @f3zinker was making from the beginning is what he clarified in his edit: to Aella (or anyone else reading people here for that matter), you are a nobody who doesn't matter. You can't possibly affect behavior by shaming people from such a position of unimportance to them.

Oh you sweet summer child...

Is another example of a regularly successful attempt to affect behavior by shaming people from a position of unimportance. Is that not shaming in your eyes?

No, not at all. Why would I care if someone thinks that?

You are typical minding then. Every interaction on the internet is a status game, and the vast, vast majority of people are insecure enough to let statements like 'you sweet summer child' or 'ok boomer' or a picture of captain Picard holding his face modify their behaviour. Not from a celebrity, from a nobody - maybe a friend of a friend on Facebook or Twitter, but usually just a complete stranger - and all they have to do is drop a meme that makes them feel stupid for saying whatever they said. If you couldn't change a stranger's behaviour with shame, cyber bullying wouldn't be a concept. Kiwifarms would never have existed. Gamergate wouldn't have happened. Tyler the creator wouldn't need to tell people to look elsewhere.

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Yes but the shaming is not always for the purpose of affecting the behavior of the target, but rather pour encourager les autres, the other readers.

Your shaming won't work on me Frucko. I am shameless.

Wrong! Third parties who read it can experience shame by proxy.

And yet, cancel mobs. They sure seem to achieve a lot, at least in terms of forcing normies into social conformity with their desired shibboleths.

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