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Maybe I am typical minding too much but I think if you tried describing these "tensions" to people who support both the things you identify as in tension they would come off as non-sequiturs.
My impression is that most of the people celebrating something like "International Day of Solidarity with the Palestinian People" likely believe there is an ethnic cleansing, if not genocide, going on in the West Bank and Gaza. Carried out by some combination of the Israeli government and private settlers. I would be surprised if their objections to this state of affairs evaporated on learning that Palestinians were anti-trans or misogynistic. The two things do not seem connected to each other. I don't think people's objection to Israel's treatment of Palestinians is premised on those Palestinians having progressive politics, though I am open to being wrong about this.
When people are thinking of something like "Transgender Awareness Week" they are thinking about struggles trans people have accessing healthcare. Or discrimination they might face in employment in housing. Similarly when people are thinking of "International Day for the Elimination of Violence Against Women" they are probably thinking of the elimination of, like, intimate partner violence. Assault by strangers. "Male rapists claiming to be trans to access women in prison" are just not salient to either groups conception of what the events are about.
Why? Tens of thousands of people have been crowing for weeks that Charlie Kirk deserved to be murdered because of his "transphobic rhetoric" and/or his opposition to abortion. It's probably a safe bet that Kirk was less misogynistic and anti-LGBT than the modal Palestinian.
I don't think they are. I think they're primarily thinking about the main culture war flashpoints, almost all of which involve male people in women's spaces.
I agree that they aren't salient. My argument is that they should be. My argument is that it's incoherent to claim to oppose violence against women and yet support policies that put women at greater risk of physical harm for the benefit of men.
While I am not one of these people (and think that Kirk's murder was wrong for both fundamental ethical and dumb for strategic reasons), you are equating political assassination with what is perceived to be genocide.
If the IDF only used snipers to take out public figures who expressed pro-Hamas sentiments, or if Kirk had been killed by a rocket along with his family and neighbors as collateral damage (whose intendedness could be disputed), your comparison would be more on point.
Well, the word "perceived" is doing the heavy lifting there.
That is why I wrote my 2nd paragraph. Again, if the woke mob decided that every American who is a member of an anti-abortion organization deserves to be bombed, and that if others die in the bombing attacks that is acceptable, and turned most of the US into rubble in their quest to eliminate all the abortion opponents, then you could claim that the woke mob is hypocritical when opposing the IDF. But if it is just the odd assassination, that is very different in scale.
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I don't see it as particularly more incoherent than when right-wingers, who are generally hardly known for wanting to improve the lot of imprisoned criminals, develop a strange and very isolated compassion towards women prisoners who are forced to share their prison tracts with men.
It would be easier to make sense of the sentiment if it were presented as outrage at the MtF criminals getting off lightly/getting to enjoy a fox-in-the-chicken-coop scenario, rather than the appropriation of care foundation language we are getting. (Something about using the master's tools on the master's house?)
Both are perfectly coherent.
The traditionalist view of this is man vs. man. Criminal women are still women, and as such still retain their primary value to [traditionalist] men. Thus, we should avoid actively enabling men, and above all criminal men (they claim to be women, but that's not relevant beyond the surface culture-war that raised the question) to damage that value.
That society holds a reserve of otherwise perfectly-functional women is supplemental to this group's power.
The progressive view of this is woman vs. woman. Criminal women are still sexual competition due to the above, so their getting raped by men reduces the average woman's sexual competition. Thus, we should actively enable criminal men (they claim to be women, but that's not relevant beyond the surface culture-war level that raised the question) to damage that value.
That society holds a reserve of otherwise perfectly-functional women is detrimental to this group's power.
People who aren't listening to their instincts like that are pretty boring by comparison; they think prison rape is bad, but if societal consensus is that prison rape is good it might as well be equal-opportunity. They're more likely to resemble progressives in this matter since their actions increase the number of women being raped in prison, but they're more likely to resemble traditionalists on the mirror image of this question, which is "should violent men go to prison at all?", for the same reason.
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Improving things for prisoners is a regular low priority hobby horse for the christian right. They're much less loud about it than progressives but unlike the latter, they actually get around to trying it.
What do you mean? The most effective way to improve things for a prisoner is simply to release them rather than putting them in prison; progressives have been wildly successful at doing that.
Sure, it's worse for the community, but criminals most often target men so women have at best (1/how often men are more targeted) the incentive to care. In the event a criminal does target a woman, it's the job of men to die in their defense (preferably unarmed), that woman will find another. And in the very unlikely event a woman does die, well, less sexual competition.
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That's mostly because what is "known" by the mainstream is a very carefully curated view of reality. In reality, the biggest effort to reduce prison rape in my lifetime was the Prison Rape Elimination Act. Spearheaded by George W Bush and a coalition that was largely comprised of Southern Baptists and the NCAACP.
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Maybe I'm so tough on crime I just don't want men escaping to a comparatively nicer female prison.
(I do truly think a significant amount of the backlash and the gulf in male-female trans support is legitimately just disgust that some men, specifically the sort of man other men know to distrust or contain, think they get to defect)
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There's nothing incoherent about thinking the punishment should fit the crime. When a woman commits a crime, her punishment is to be sent to prison. Her punishment is not to be penetratively raped (and possibly impregnated) by one of her fellow inmates.
How does prison rape happen? Presumably if you can forcefully penetrate your fellow inmates and get away with it, you can also do all sorts of other violence to them. Anecdotally, this happens a lot, including in single-sex prisons. Is that part of the "fitting" punishment? What about male-on-male prison rape? I have never heard anyone on the right take up a crusade to reduce those things, and surely, in the age of robotics, tasers and $50 HD CCTV we could easily shut down all physical forms of prisoner-on-prisoner violence in no time if a critical mass of people didn't think it's all part of the punishment.
It's a bit too convenient if of all unscheduled tribulations of prison, the only one that you think urgently needs to be addressed happens to be one where the indicated solution would be to grant you a symbolic victory on a culture war topic that otherwise has nothing to do with prisons.
Yes all male prisons also currently suck for the residents as a result of the efforts of the same people (or their forefathers intellectually) who are trying to expand that problem to female prisons. That does not appear to me to be a good argument.
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For deep-seated reasons rooted in evolutionary psychology, almost everyone feels an intrinsic protectiveness towards women, even in cases where the woman in question has broken the law. Most people feel more horrified when hearing about a woman being penetratively raped than they do when hearing about a man being penetratively raped. This is probably related to the fact that female people can be impregnated against their will, and are systematically weaker and less able to defend themselves than male people are.
You don't need to agree with this, or think it's fair or logical, to understand the instinctual reaction. I think "instinctual horror against women being mistreated" has a great deal more explanatory power than immediately jumping to the conclusion that conservative opposition to trans women in female prisons has nothing to do with a desire to protect female inmates, and is solely rooted in hatred of trans people.
Do you assume women's prisons are meaningfully less violent than men's prisons? After having seen an assortment bodycam videos of female criminals getting arrested, I would find that doubtful. Were you aware of headlines such as this?
None of this other mistreatment seems to trigger the same instinctual reaction in right-wingers, at least not to the extent that I have even once seen them bring it up. All I am asking is that you apply the same standard that, in your opening post, you wanted to be applied to the "woke coalition": that if they visibly care about and campaign against one instance of a bad thing but are apparently indifferent to another which is so adjacent that you couldn't possibly miss it if you looked at the former, this is prima facie evidence that their true principles entail approval of the latter regardless of what their stated principles say.
I don't even think you are wrong, in your diagnosis of the "woke coalition". It's just that you earn no points for recognising that your outgroup is hypocritical and unprincipled. Do not even the 'publicans the same?
Without bothering to look this up: obviously yes. Do you have compelling prison violence statistics that show the opposite?
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Yes, and even if they weren't they can't do as much damage as a man, even on hormones.
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I don't assume, I know:
Given that your article is from the UK, it won't surprise you to learn that the story is much the same over there as far as homicides go. It appears that not a single woman or trans person has been murdered in prison since at least 2015. If per capita homicide rates between the male and female estate were identical, you would expect two women murdered in the period.
Interesting that the UK is one country in which male inmates have been housed in the female estate, this is a recent phenomenon, this article comments on a huge spike in violence in the female estate, and yet doesn't mention the sexes of any of the perpetrators of this violence. I'm not saying that this spike is entirely attributable to the relatively new presence of male inmates in the female estate, but it sure is interesting that the source you provided specifically comments on the fact that the current rate of violence in the female estate is discontinuous with historical trends.
As I said previously, I think a great many people have an instinctive reaction of horror and outrage when they learn about a male person assaulting a female person, and this reaction isn't triggered when they hear about a male person assaulting a male person or a female person assaulting a female person. We can debate whether that's fair, appropriate or logical until the cows come home, but I think that instinctive reaction has a great deal more explanatory power in why conservatives might object to male people in women's prisons or contact sports than the pat answer of "they hate trans people and want to make their lives difficult out of sheer bloody-mindedness".
What standard am I failing to apply? I am strongly opposed to violence against women, as a consequence of which I've donated literally thousands of euros to my local rape crisis centre and am strongly opposed to male inmates being housed in the female estate. I don't feel any kind of inconsistency.
There are actually official statistics, suggesting a grand total of 43? 48? MtF prisoners as of two years ago. They would have to be very prolific indeed to be a significant cause of this uptick.
Talking about murders rather shifts the goalposts.
Well, now we are getting narrower. Presumably there is also no instinctive horror about women getting harmed by black mold and feces-smeared walls. So the principle isn't really "protect women" but "protect women from direct assault by men"? At that point, how can you fault wokes if their principle isn't "protect women" but "protect women from direct assault by people who have systemic power over them"?
If you cared for women in prisons being submitted to punishment beyond the fact of being imprisoned, you could campaign for improving conditions or donate to charities that aim to do so. The article mentions several such charities in the UK; I imagine similar ones also exist in the US. I didn't dispute that you (or right-wingers in general) care for women out of prison, so the rape crisis centre thing is irrelevant. My point is that you don't seem to care if inmates, male or female, get beaten, mentally abused, or slowly poisoned by mycotoxins; in fact I am fairly sure that I have seen stories of abuse of female prisoners by male guards (and quite adjacently, Youtube is full of videos of violent arrests of female criminals by police), to which the right-wing reaction is also reliably crickets. At some point, you will have to retreat to asserting that in fact the natural horrified reaction of the great many is confined to the possibility of MtF trans violating women, which surely would be no less facile than saying that Oct 7 naturally doesn't count.
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I'm personally always banging this drum, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that everyone who opposes such measures actively supports the existence of prisoner-on-prisoner violence as part of the punishment. Some do, but I think a great number of them simply feel that criminals aren't worth the expense of the measures that would be necessary to protect them, ie they find the existence of prison rape distasteful in principle and would rather it didn't happen, but don't think honest men's tax dollars should go into preventing it when there are worthier causes out there.
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I was surprised to run into the same rhetoric IRL from the patrons at that gay bar. Hell, they claimed that the shooter was "right-wing".
I gently attempted to push back, but ended up deciding that it just wasn't worth the hassle.
You seem to be spending a lot of time there bro 👀
It's the only one in comfortable walking distance, cheap, and my best bud prefers it haha. I keep meaning to try ingratiating myself somewhere else, preferably one with more heterosexual women, but I just can't be arsed to go double the distance most days.
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First, I think that you are exaggerating what the response was to Kirk's death amongst normies (I agree that there were terminally online people who actively celebrated it, but I am talking about "irl" woke people)
The leftists at my workplace (the kind of place where "Trump is [generally] bad" is just in the groundwater) were very unsympathetic to Kirk. But none of them actually celebrated his death, they (quietly) discussed how he was a bad person, and that he had sort of brought it upon himself (I'm given to understand this is because he was pro-guns) To cherrypick the very worst things said (I'm paraphrasing):
But everyone to my recollection affirmed that it is bad that a human being died. And this general direction of discussion was lightly shut down by another progressive.
But Charlie Kirk was an individual, who personally held the "misogynistic" and anti-LGBT beliefs of a "modal Charlie Kirk" - not all Palestinians share the sentiments (or crimes) of the mode. I'm not saying group punishment is axiomatically immoral, but it is clearly a gray area because it involves punishing innocents. I think it is much more straightforward morally to support punishing a bad person for personally doing a bad thing (I'm not saying Kirk / Muslims do a "bad thing" by holding these views, just addressing this particular line of inference you drew)
But the above is my own disagreement to your logic. If we are looking at the world through a progressive lens:
The bathroom stuff is only one of the flashpoints. Respecting pronouns, concerns about the growing anti-trans (or "transphobic", if we are pathologising it) sentiment, access to hormones, trans children, trans men, non-binary individuals - these are all pretty clearly "flashpoints", and none involve males in female spaces.
As I suspect you are aware, progressives assign a different meaning to the word "woman" and "man" than you do. It is a reference to one's gender identity, and can be unrelated to their chromosomes, sex organs, appearance, etc (i.e. "transgender")
None of these policies benefit men - they benefit (trans) women (at the expense of cis women) One can argue that this is a bad definition, but it is the definition used by progressives - it is what they mean when they say "man" and "woman". So there is absolutely nothing "incoherent" about being feminist and pro trans rights.
Also, on top of that, it's not even incoherent to oppose violence against AFABs and support trans rights. It is possible to have multiple moral goals, for those goals to come into conflict, and to have to choose one over the other:
None of my colleagues strike me as terminally online, and yet the day after his death I heard several of them listing off his "problematic" opinions about abortion and gun control, the clear implication being that he got what was coming to him.
I don't really understand the distinction between celebrating someone's death and saying that their death was "truly poetic".
Soft bigotry of low expectations strikes again.
How did Charlie Kirk cause harm to the LGBT community? Meanwhile, how many LGBT Palestinians have been executed (judicially or otherwise) because of their sexuality or gender identity?
Agreed on trans children. Several of the examples you listed (such as "non-binary people") do involve males in women's spaces. Others don't really strike me as "flashpoints" in the same way: for entirely understandable reasons, female people wanting to enter men's spaces doesn't inspire half as much ire as the converse. The main reason for this is that it doesn't really happen: trans men and non-binary female inmates are hardly clamouring to be housed in the male estate.
You're correct. I just wish that progressive people would acknowledge that conflicts and trade-offs between terminal goals like this exist, instead of loudly insisting that they don't and that anyone who claims they do is a crypto-conservative. That's what I meant when I said that "trans awareness" and "opposition to violence against women (or AFABs, if you must)" are "in tension": some of their goals sought by TRAs and by people who want to minimise violence against female people really are mutually exclusive, and this should be acknowledged and discussed openly instead of ignored.
As I conceded to @gattsuru, I was being unreasonably skeptical to your claims. I now believe that progressives (even in the UK) care more about the whole Kirk thing than I had thought.
Still, and maybe this is just nitpicking, I think there is a difference between thinking he was a bad person (who the world is better off without) and celebrating his death. In your own account, you say they call him out for his right-wing positions, but these "impliciations" are dicier and usually requires some level of psychologisation of your interlocutor.
I'm not trying to be willfully obtuse here - obviously what your coworkers are doing is exactly what someone who does support assassination of the outgroup would do. But it's also reasonable that they think he was a bad person, who didn't deserve to die, but still a bad person, and it's unfair for [insert members of progressive coalition] to let down on the criticism, lest the ideas he advanced be given undue legitimacy (an example of the kind of stance I am referring to)
Firstly it was said by a Russian person, so the language was a bit awkward. Maybe I misread their tone, but it sounded more like: "Due to pro-gun influencers like him, there have been so many pointless deaths, and now, ironically, he himself died as a result of what he preached (killed by a hateful right winger) It's all just so sad, why are humans like this?"
Thinking more on it, this is kind of a gray area. If we are being maximally charitable, progressives are just misinformed about what happened (given that the motive was "Kirk spread too much hate" and the shooter had a trans girlfriend, this was actually a left wing act of violence), and you could come to this conclusion by just consuming selected media outlets. But at what point does it just become willful ignorance? A meta-level "hack" where by maintaining ignorance, you can be allowed to support a violent act by your "side" but also not have to openly support violence against the outgroup.
Also the person who said it was a woman (in the normal sense of the word: an AFAB, uterus-haver, etc), so I'm more inclined to believe she wasn't celebrating death.
Well, the facts on the ground are that we should have low expectations from these kinds of people on a group-level. If even the maximally charitable "they are exactly like everyone else, it's just that everyone else treats them badly because [reasons]" counts as "bigotry", then I don't think it's possible to not be a bigot.
Broadly speaking, he was a popular political influencer who pubicly and proudly took an anti-LGBT stance. This helps shift public opinion to be more anti-LGBT. And this leads to things that make life materially worse for LGBT people (the general public is less accepting of them, anti-LGBT legislation is passed, pro-LGBT legislation isn't passed, etc)
Unlike a progressive, I concede this is a fully general argument that also means, e.g. Obama caused harm to White people. But I claim this argument is valid (and in particular, is valid in the Kirk x LGBT case)
The LGBT people harmed by the Palestinians are all in Palestine. It is pretty reasonable that LGBT (and their allies) in the West would focus on people who cause harm to Western LGBT people (even if said harm is a lot less than the harm caused by Palestinians in Palestine)
I echo @PutAHelmetOn. I assume that the smarter progressives (college professors, politicians, etc) are aware of these tensions in their own mind and internally make these tradeoffs. But they also know that, on an open political stage, it is unwise to admit these facts, because it gives legitimacy to people who actually just reject gender ideology wholesale.
But I agree it's an unecessary evil that normies who lack any influence choose to do this too. It would be nice if it were more normalised to "cordon off" these sorts of private interpersonal interactions, and just allow people to sort out the truth amongst themselves instead of having to speak "tactically" all the time.
One thing that helps you tell the difference between A and B here is that if the criticisms in B are made in bad faith, it's a lot more likely that someone really means A. And a lot of the B's here seem to be made in astonishingly bad faith.
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You are a bad person and the world would be better off if you were shot.
When you read that statement, does it feel like a calm acknowledgement of detached utilitarian calculus?
Or does it feel like a threat?
When I first read it (before I processed you were posing it as a hypothetical) it felt like a threat.
In this specific hypothetical, I personally (where to draw the line is a gray area) think the statement does count as a threat. "You are a bad person and the world would be better off from your absence" would be okay, but explicitly talking about killing, and a specific mode of execution on top of that, seems to cross the line into "directly inciting violence"
But in general, feeling viscerally attacked shouldn't be sufficient to make something a "threat". Often, harsh criticism can make a target feel threatened or even unsafe, since it indirectly encourages violence against the focus of the criticism (if X is bad, maybe we ought to do something about X?)
I don't think that statement counts as a threat, even meant seriously, in a legally actionable sort of way. I do think it colors in the difference between "thinking ill of someone" and "celebrating a death". And I think when you're at the point of quibbling over how much approval of the assassination of a debate bro counts as "celebrating" then it is past time for you to have the "Are we the baddies" conversation.
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Neither. It feels like (paraphrasing their view), "I am not going to harm someone but nor would I mourn one fewer asshole in the world." A threat means you are motivated to cause something to happen, this is either apathy for or emotional relief/positivity that one negative thing in your life has gone away. It's like the difference between being happy to find money laying on the street and stealing money.
The point is that there are implications to statements that go beyond their basic dictionary definition meaning. The fact that someone is choosing to explicitly say that carries weight, and informs the interpretation. You can make reasonable inferences about the character and beliefs of the person who chooses to go around saying that to aquaintences the day after a shocking murder.
Imagine a white man who, the day after the MLK assassination, went around loudly saying to all the neightbors "Well, sometimes things happen to people who won't stop running their mouths." Do you think that would be just some irrelevant banality that no black neighbors should use to further their understanding of the man in question?
I am not arguing that "celebrating" a man's death (though I would argue that a portion of those accused weren't celebrating, some were apathetic and some were objecting to his being made a martyr) is good. I am arguing that the word "threat" has implications that don't fit. A threat is a claim or insinuation that you are willing to perform a violent action, and looking past the "punch Nazi" larping they aren't. As per my analogy, it's like finding money on the street. You didn't cause someone to lose their money so you have nothing to feel guilty over, but you are happy that something happened that benefited you. That first part, that "I didn't cause it," is how they justify it to themselves. "Shit happens, but this time it happened to a bad person so it works out I guess."
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Having had it said to me by a communist in my social group IRL, I didn't feel exactly threatened in the moment but it certainly contributed to making my politics far less forgiving than they used to be.
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I understand you wish your enemies to be unpractical, but you obviously see why they behave the way they do, yeah? The only reason to notice and acknowledge that they are in tension is to try to break the coalition. Only conservatives want that (Who benefits?). Indeed, since progressive people understand this, the only thing they can do is say the goals are not in tension.
Is there no truth value in pointing out philosophical incoherence? Free pass on that, ends justify the means?
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I'll second self_made_human and point to KendricTonn getting it in Ohio. There's more terminally online people than ever before, only some of them poast 24/7/365, and these days it's possible to invite them into your home without ever having been aware of their online presence beforehand.
I'm glad you've avoided it, but I'm finding that less and less possible.
I initially only believed that this stuff was happening irl in the US, but not the UK (since Kirk was an American influencer), I was under the impression UK progressives had entirely forgotten about the Kirk thing (the account I gave was the first and last time this topic was brought up irl in my presence)
Since it was just @FtttG saying this (from the UK), and it felt "two steps removed" from my own experience, I wondered if he had misinterpreted things and blown stuff up in his head by overthinking. But then @self_made_human's account was also in the UK.
The most parsimonious explanation is that my progressive coworkers do have these sorts of discussions, but not around me (because we don't spend time together except at lunch), which makes sense. I guess it felt "off" to me (hence that part of my comment) because it seems quite far from how they behave with me at work, but then my behaviour / opinions in private is quite far from when I am at work, so I should expect that they also have some "hidden" part to themselves.
I live in Ireland.
In fairness, my colleagues were only talking about it the day after. I don't think I've heard his name mentioned around the office since.
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Half the population of Gaza are children, I don't think most woke people advocate for mass murdering people in non woke countries.
Also Israel's goal is to create a massive refugee crisis on Europe's doorstep. In other words, Israel is trying to export Palestine to the west.
Can you back up this claim? Not just that this is an effect of Israel's action's, but an actual goal that the State of Israel is seeking to enact?
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If nothing else, the heartstrings-tugging about Palestinians has heavily focused on the plight of Palestinian children, who cannot be held responsible for the beliefs of their parents.
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