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MAGAs must make up their minds about whom they dislike first.
Are you worried about demographic replacement, elite takeover or unintegrated criminals ?
"Stop all non-white immigration" may resonate in some circles, but isn't representative of American or Trump voter preferences.
His actions are in reaction to unintegrated criminals, primarily from Islamist nations. Why would you expect it to affect Mexico, India or the Philippines ?
Trump's post only vaguely points to his intentions vis-a-vis legal migrants.
Lets see.
This would imply removal of benefits for all green card holders ? Visa holders don't get federal benefits anyway. Immigrants must pay into social security, pay taxes and rising visa fees. All while being ineligible for benefits. Cool. What was that about taxation without representation ?
Americans already agree that violent felons who lied on their naturalization doc should be deported. Visa & green card holders with felonies are already banned from reentry. Outside existing norms (terrorism, child predator, Nazi), it is very hard to de-naturalize an American who got their citizenship legally. Trump has limited power and courts have a ton of precedent. Doesn't help that it requires a jury to convict.
Apart from criminality, How does Trump define 'incompatible with western civilization' ? Maybe he means the Amish, the native Americans, the Mormon or the Scientologists ? Does he mean pluralist, liberal & tolerant ? Does he mean white, protestant and english speaking ? IMO, it's a whole lot of words that mean nothing. Trump 101.
Personally, I'm sick of white supremacists using motte-and-baileys to criticize immigrants.
It's revealing that Indians, Mexicans and Filipinos are the main groups they have issues with.
Indians are a model minority, speak English, from a pluralistic democracy and uniquely economically productive. Other than color and religion, they satisfy every bar for a model American.
Mexicans are devout Christians, take all the 'shit' jobs, have a fair claim to the land and work harder than any 'sanctity of work' protestant I've seen. There are valid concerns about criminals and cartel members. But, as we covered before, Americans and Trump are already aligned on their deportation. If every illegal immigrant and every Mexican criminal is deported, Mexicans will still continue immigration in large numbers through legal family based migration and birthright citizenship for children of legal workers.
Filipinos are devout Christians, pre-indoctrinated (due to American colonial occupation), peaceful and most immigrate to fill middle-of-the-pack essential jobs in healthcare, military and education.
There is no venn diagram that fits all 3 groups except - "not white". If you want fewer non-whites. Just say that.
P.S: I've heard geographic arguments claiming 'America is full' and they don't want more immigrants of any color. I am not going to address why this opinion is bad. It's a tired one.
Mexicans, Filipinos, and Vietnamese are the best major groups of immigrants. There are some black groups which number among the same. This isn't a straight race thing- south Asians rub a lot of people the wrong way. Superiority complexes, difficulty assimilating, it doesn't matter how good they are for the economy. I just dislike the median Indian immigrant for being a rude, snooty pagan with a different attitude towards the truth than better immigrant groups like Latinos or Southeast Asians, while also being less willing to assimilate. As Indian immigration becomes more visible, expect more of this.
Dominicans are darker than Indians while not bringing nearly as much personal distaste. It isn't a race thing, although it probably doesn't help that you can tell Indians very easily by looking at them. Among actual IRL Trump voters immigration from southeast Asia, other parts of the new world, etc is far more acceptable than from India. There may be demand for lower numbers overall, because widespread bilingualism is not popular, but there's no personal resistance to Mexicans.
In the UK immigrants from Christian Africa who came in via selective routes (like Kemi Badenoch) and Indians (like Rishi Sunak) are the leading candidates for model minorities. I don't know why anti-Indian racism is so much easier to run with in the US than the UK - my guesses would be some combination of religion (Christianity is a bigger part of your national identity than ours) and the first wave of Indian immigrants in the UK being people who had collaborated with the British Empire.
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Could you elaborate on how paganism shapes someone differently as compared to monotheism ?
The superiority complex is one I've only seen on the internet. I've also not seem much rudeness from Indians in the US. Maybe I don't interact with the median Indian much.
Could you give concrete examples of how Indian communities in the US fail to integrate ?
There are the standard claims of nepotism in jobs and cheating in universities. There is the is the reality of BO. These points are a little tired. I am genuinely curious if there are other examples.
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They only speak English for certain definitions of "speak" and "English." That vast majority of my coworkers are based out of Mumbai, but I have several that are Indians living in southern California that have been in the US for years and their English is only marginally better than those who are still in India. Took me 4 months of listening to them talk daily to finally be able to understand them 75% of the time. Meanwhile my Russian and Belarusian coworkers still have noticeable accents but are quite easy to understand 98% of the time.
India's democracy is corrupt and full of ethnic/religious spoils, and I'm sure that America's slow but steady slide into a similar system is in no small part caused by immigration from countries like India that have ethnic spoils systems. Affirmative action in America is bad enough, but it has nothing on caste-based affirmative action in India. And don't get me started on caste-based discrimination by Indian employees in Anerican companies against other Indians. I see this pretty regularly at my work, I make a point of looking up my coworkers' last names since it's a fairly reliable indicator of caste and their treatment of and by other coworkers usually follows certain patterns based on caste.
And I don't know about other fields, but in software development Indians are not economically productive. In fact I would go so far as to say they are financial drains on most companies they work for. For every decently competent Indian dev at my company there are 30 drooling retards that make more work for the competent people. The reason companies still hire them is because demand for software development in the world is greater than the amount of competent software developers in the world are able to deliver. But with retarded project management systems like agile and scrum you can barely squeeze out a kind of functional product from incompetent devs. Combine this with the fact that most companies are awful at filtering out the competent devs from the incompetent ones and you get modern enterprise software development.
I have pretty much zero issues with Filipinos so long as they actually speak English fluently. Pinoys tend to be bros in my experience.
With Mexicans, my biggest issue is criminality, followed by dilution of my vote, and suppression of wages in third. Legal Mexicans that speak English well and integrate well with society don't bother me. Got a lovely couple (Mexican husband, white wife) across the street from me and they're fantastic neighbors.
I have a problem with Indians because I hate the content of their character. Indians that do not fit the stereotypes of their poor character are few and far between in my experience, and I work with tons of them (both ones in India and the US) every damn day.
Whiteness and race in general don't matter too much for me, except inasmuch as they are useful proxies for who is likely to be a civilization wrecker vs. a civilization destroyer. One specific example I think of often is this guy: https://imgur.com/rawhide-kobayashi-4FjiGcJ
I know it's a meme and probably not a real person, but I don't give a damn that he's Japanese, he's culturally American for all I care. I hope someone like him was actually able to move to Texas and marry a hot blonde cowgirl with big boobs and make lots of hapa babies with her on his cattle ranch. Some Filipinos and Mexicans are able to do the same kind of assimilation, very few Indians are.
EDIT: To clarify my position a bit, I am in favor of drastically reducing all immigration, even from groups that I generally like, because of my issues with vote dilution, wage suppression, housing prices, etc. But I'm especially in favor of outright ending or drastically limiting immigration from shithole countries/cultures like India.
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Model minorities don't systematically exploit food banks or run trucks into school buses filled with hockey players or come on student visas for fake degrees while working minimum wage jobs. To be blunt: Indians may have been a model minority thirty years ago, when only the best Western-educated rich ones could make it through the filter. But not now. Gujurati and Punjabi hick shudras are just as awful as any unwesternized rural peasant can be and pretending that they're all Oxford-educated brahmins is a lie too big to swallow.
Canada's immigration policy is so insane that the India's foreign minister himself has formally warned Canada that they're granting visas to the worst of the worst.
Punjab is India's drug trafficking capital and gangs. These Canadian immigrants are almost always Jatt Sikh. Gang-leaders radicalize younger unemployed men by fashioning themselves as leaders of the Khalistani movement. The gangs are funded through Canadian immigration scams, welfare scams & drug running. For the last 50 years, the movement has been based out of Canada, and Indians explicitly view it as a Canadian problem and not an Indian one. I must note, Indians Sikhs are just as sick of this group as everyone else. Canada's insistence that this group deserves to be protected because they're minorities has been a major source of tension between Canada and India. Indians and Canadian Khalistani sympathizers do not get along with each other AT ALL.
Actually, if you wanted to really demonize Indians, you should point to the people who inspired 9/11. The bombing of flight 182 and (failed bombing) of flight 301 was the largest coordinated airplane terror attack until 9/11 and till date is the largest terror attack on Canadian soil. It killed 300+ Canadians, but was buried by the Canadian govt. Sadly, it didn't become a bigger story is because most Canadians who died were of ethnically Indian, and Canadians of the time didn't quite see the death of Canadian Indians as the death of real Canadians.
Ofc, Indians hate the Khalistani movement with a passion. So if you do ever decide to start a deport all Khalistanis movement, you'll probably find most of your supporters to be other Indians.
It's like if Canada had imported all of America's skin heads, and then complained that white people commit too much crime.
Wasn't this accidental ? As tragic as it was, I don't think race has much to do with it. Your best example of Indian violence is an inexperienced Indian driver who entered legally, was sober and killed people in an unintended accident. Then it proves my point that Indians are a pretty peaceful bunch. I can't help but notice that the driver was a jatt sikh.
Who fucking cares? An entire team of hockey players are dead because a nobody who should never have been there in the first place was behind the controls of a machine he had no business using. Nobody is saying he did it on purpose, because it doesn't fucking matter what your intentions are when you lose control of something you should never have been allowed to control.
And there are dozens and dozens of other examples. There was a newlywed couple in Oregon just this week who was killed by an illegal indian with a California CDL. Oh by the way he was let in by Joe Biden and Alejandro Mayorkas.
How many more examples would you like? Or maybe go hunting for yourself and see what you find.
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To be blunt to the point of ungraciousness, I do not care. What I mean is that I really don't care about old world ethnic grievances coming to the new. India sending assassins through their embassies to deal with their separatists is, definitionally, not what a model minority gets up to. I don't get into knife fights with Japanese or mainland Chinese or Koreans in Canada. I come to this country, founded by Anglos, and I cause no trouble. I speak their language and respect their values.
And that is not what the Indians are doing.
When Indians show up to fight with the Pakistanis on the streets of London, one must think of the native Britons, who think to themselves: how the hell is this my problem? I am forced to have a opinion on Khalistan, on Kashmir, because loud and rude foreigners come over and make it my problem in Canada. Indians are not a model minority. I'm not demonizing them. They bring trouble to the country I was born in. As an Chinese-Canadian, my opinion of them is very low for good reason. If they want to be a model minority, they can change how they goddamn behave.
You should cuz they're yours. The Khalistani garden was planted, watered and nurtured in your nation. You made your bed, you can lie in it. You can't kick them out. It's a you problem.
Maybe the native Britons shouldn't have colonized the subcontinent ? If they'd made it their problem, they would've have known that even in India, Pahari Muslims exist as un-integrated tribes and they are very likely to ghettoize once they come here.
Leaving khalistanis & paharis aside, I am going to stick to talking about the median Indian immigrant in North America.
You're allowed to have an opinion. But if you want it to be a good opinion, by definition, it must be well informed. You can rely on anecdotes and one-offs, but when the statistics disagree with you, you better have a good justification on why it is so.
That's a interesting contrast in how Indians and Chinese integrate. Indians believe what the White Americans told them. Their global media, their immigration forms and their constitutions. They said: "Work hard and this meritocratic capitalistic paradise will reward you with wealth and a voice. The land of the free, where anyone can be American."
Indians (I'm projecting a bit) will keep their heads down until they become citizens. But after naturalization or in the 2nd generation, they start feeling the entitled to free expression. Chinese Americans in comparison continue to stay quiet, as if they're guests in their own country.
You're a citizen. You pay taxes. Your right to impose your will on the nation is no less than a 'Heritage American'. Honestly, if you don't feel entitled to shape the nation in your own image, then you haven't integrated sufficiently enough. If you feel insecure about your place in your nation's racial totem pole, then you'll always find some group to be mad about. Indians today, someone else tomorrow. I'd respect you more for saying "I don't want Indians in my Canada because it doesn't align my idea of Canada". Why cares what the anglos think ?
(I know I'm mixing Canada and the US. I view Canada as a vassal state of America. I am sorry, I do not see Canada's culture as independent from America. So I will treat them as the same)
I'm a little confused by @crushedoranges talking about immigrants importing tedious internecine conflict or even assassins and you talking about free expression.
I mean, harping about khalistan is free expression, it's true, but it's crazy to suggest that you're not really integrated unless you're agitating against some other group from the old country, and it's especially absurd when you're talking about the second generation who often hasn't even set foot in the old country.
Integration isn't about doing what your grandparents did, except in the new country. Integration is about doing as the locals do. And it would really be unconscionable for Americans of German extraction to go on and on about Alsaceshit. Nobody wants to hear that.
It's because we're talking about different groups.
Crushed oranges insists that:
My comment mostly addresses #2. I edited my previous comment to make the distinction between both sections clearer.
There is lies our disagreement. To me, the American identity isn't ethnic. I can immigrate to Germany, and I will never be German. Once I am American, I am American. (esp those born here.)
America is a cultural identity: Pluralism, sanctity of work, free speech, can do attitude, reckless optimism, suing people, thanksgiving and christmas. That's how America markets itself. But also, that's how the American mythos is written.
Yes, an immigrant should integrate by imbibing the pre-established cultural values of America. But, the immigrant and modern Anglos should have an equal say in how the culture of America evolves going into the future.
To me, no American is more American by race and history alone. I read Crushed Oranges's comment as a implication that non-angos (them and my presumed future children) should defer to heritage white anglos on what it means to be American/Canadian. I have an issue with that.
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I refuse to accept responsibility for Khalistan. Khalistan happened because stupid Indian politicians commanded their army stormed their holy of holies. India has exported this problem to my country. This does not please me. Just because white people are stupid enough to let the problem does not make me any happier - or more willing to accept the blame.
If you invite a guest into your house, and they have recently come from a fight, and wish to continue it, the host can ask them to leave, and not get involved. This is common sense. No, I don't have to become a citizen of the world. No, I don't have to accept tribal fighting from Bumfuckistan or grudges from the Actual Country They're Loyal To. They can go and sing their song of letting their brother, their cousin, their uncle, their entire Bollywood backup dancer squad into other people's countries.
If they are a net benefit to the people who are here, and cause no trouble? Good. If not, kick them out! That is a good opinion, a universal opinion. I don't need statistics to back that one up. For the same reason you don't want infinity Muslims in India, I don't want infinity Indians in my country. If that is not sufficient to clear things up, others will explain in my stead.
You still owe duties to guests you invite into your house and then ask to leave but who refuse to leave, or at least you do in the UK under the Occupier's Liability Act 1984. They're not as stringent as those you owe to guests you continue to give permission but your not giving permission to be on your property doesn't give you an automatic right to treat them in whatever way you want until they leave.
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ahahahahahahahahaha no
Chinese are the model minority. Indians are scammers and cheaters, and have a terrible culture. They only look good in the numbers because of the selection effect of the most difficult and competitive visa and immigration process out of any country. The ones who make it are invariably highly educated, motivated, and intelligent. But even so they are still cheating it, by sending millions of fraudulent h1-b applications.
Look at Canada's indians, or look at Biden's illegal indians. They are some of the worst dregs on the planet. There's an entire thing about how the entire US trucking market has been flooded with illiterate indian illegal immigrants who were brought in by Biden.
Japanese are the model minority, because we have military bases in their homeland.
Unless you're talking about Canada. I don't know how many Japanese are living there.
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That's not going anywhere. By Indians, I specifically mean the ones preselected to immigrate to the US. The H1b is the primary pathway for these educated, motivated, and intelligent immigrants to come to the US. Given that anti-Indian hate is disproportionately pointed towards the H1bs, I am inclined to believe that hatred towards Indians has little to do with good-behavior or excellence.
We'll be going in circles if we take this up. I disagree, and nothing I say will change your opinion. I will acknowledge that an open-door immigration policy towards an impoverished nation of 1.5 billion people is beyond stupid.
You can't point to America's hyper meritocratic immigration process and simultaneously ignore Canada's malformed pro-criminal immigration system. That being said, despite being the worst South Asians, they're are still among the more peaceful groups in Canada. Well below Canadian latinos, blacks or whites.
There is widespread consensus that they should be deported. We aren't arguing about them.
Anti-H1b hatred is visible, true, but white, black, and Hispanic Americans of every social class tend to dislike the Indian immigrants they come in contact with due to cultural frictions- and for most of them, those Indians are not software engineers. Indian motel managers and liquor store owners and 7/11 operators are unpopular with the broader public, just like H1bs are with American tech workers. Tech workers just have very visible complaints because they're rich and highly online(and, uh, did you think they were going to welcome extra competition for jobs?).
I don't know enough to refute such a wide claim about Indians being disliked everywhere. But, it hasn't been my experience. People have generally been pretty nice in real life.
Elon's twitter & 4chan are the main places where I have seen outright hatred towards Indians.
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Yeah, instead they're the ones taking money from my pocket and food from my mouth, forcing me to compete on the labor market in my homeland, that my forefathers built.
They're the worst, and I want them gone the most.
That's logical. It's zero sum thinking, but it's fair.
I believe the US will fall behind unless it continues draining the brains of other countries, but that's just my opinion. It's also an opinion that justifies my presence in the US. So yeah, huge bias on my end.
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In that case I think we're mostly in agreement. If you cut all the fraudulent Indian H1-B applications and/or reform it, then I'm not really against a limited number of selected Indians coming in. Or at least cutting down on them is not a priority.
Honestly the biggest problem I personally have with Indians is that they're ruining H1-B for all the other countries, such as China, Japan, Europe, Canada, etc. And MAGA understands this as well.
Now there's certainly a MAGA contingent that wants all Indians gone, but it's certainly a minority of MAGA.
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"That's racist" is pretty much worn out as an argument anywhere to the right of Kamala Harris.
You forgot Jews. Perhaps because most Jews are in fact white?
Had much experience with the bottom half of Indian H-1Bs? I'm guessing not.
Are they? Because I keep seeing horror stories about some poor hardworking illegal immigrant being deported, and then it turns out they committed rape or homicide or at least a shitload of DUIs. And then there's the groypers complaining about not enough being deported and various leftists saying Trump is being hypocritical by not deporting enough farmworkers.
Schrödinger's whites are the exception that proves the rule. Concretely observing their place in the white identity would open so many cans of worms, that both sides (left and right) are happy to maintain a level of cognitive dissonance around it.
Its 2026 my dude. Those days are long gone. Left-wing hypocrisy is practically the entire reason this forum exists. It was a problem. The movement ran its course. Trump won. We are here now.
I've been a vocal supporter of H1b reform. The bottom percentile of H1bs are bad because the system is bimodal (the top tier MS pathway into big tech pathway, and then there is the diploma mill consulting pathway). The latter is pretty much labor arbitrage. Sadly, the biggest victims of H1b abuse are other Indians with strong profiles who have to leave because the lottery didn't work out. The loophole is glaring. That the loophole hasn't been closed tells me there is more to the story than simple 'Dems wants to import incompetent Indians'.
Overall, I'm with you on this one.
I believe Americans are mostly aligned on deporting the criminals. I believe they are a small enough minority that they won't increase crime rates. That trump-haters spin an open-and-shut case in order to paint MAGA as the fascists is the state of post-truth politics we live in. Disappointing, but it is what it is.
Reminds me of the prime number joke.
No, they're not the exception that prove the rule. They're the exception that blow the "rule" out of the water.
Most of the rest of the world in non-white. It's no surprise that most immigrant groups being objected to are non-white. And, in England, the same sort of people objected to Poles. Are they Schroedinger's White too?
"Whiteness" is basically irrelevant to the National Question in the UK. "I'm not racist - I don't like any foreigners" and "The wogs begin at Calais" are cliched-because-accurate descriptions of how the typical working class Reform voter thinks about it. Some people support Polish immigration because they are well-behaved and culturally Christian, some people oppose it because they are foreign.
Historically, the niggers of the UK were the Irish, not blacks.
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I do, often. This is good because it advances that goal. It is bad in that it does not go far enough.
Fair enough.
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This is just a non sequitur. We can walk and chew gum. Historically demographic replacement has been given even too much intention relative to elite takeover. Demographic replacement has already happened, not even in majority but near-totality, in elite Ivy institutions where the non-Jewish White population of the student body has been completely decimated even relative to their diminishing representation in the country. That doesn't mean we can't care about all of those things and pursue policy and advocacy to mitigate all of those at the same time.
The biggest issue with this policy is that these countries simply do not constitute the large majority of the foreign migration intake so it's symbolic, which is something. But it's not sufficient.
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