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Because you're saying "yes, men do only want tits'n'ass".
EDIT: Also, you are strongly signalling "as soon as you turn 30-40, I'm dumping your wrinkly ass for a hot 20 year old, and forget that you are the mother of my children. I can have better kids with Baddie, anyway!" Your SMV has declined, it only makes sense to offload a depreciated asset and invest in a rising stock!
No. Men obviously want T&A. But it ain’t the only thing. I wouldn’t have probably been interested in my wife if she was an uggo but I didn’t marry her just because she looked (and still does) great in a tank top. That is, if people are honest there are non romantic truths about attraction that matters but it doesn’t mean the romantic things don’t matter either.
Regardless if it’s the only thing or not, the male penchant for T&A is the necessary residual complement to female hypergamy for heterosexual relationships to form.
To paraphrase one comedian’s bit (I couldn’t recall the comedian’s name or find a video after a brief search):
Women complain that men only want T&A, but what do women want?
Someone taller than them, stronger than them, richer than them, smarter than them, funnier than them, braver than them.
So if I get with a girl, it’d be someone who’s shorter than me, weaker than me, poorer than me, dumber than me, more boring than me, more cowardly than me. What’s left for me? Has to be the T&A, right?
That guy could get with a girl taller etc. than him, but he won't. Because his poor little fee-fees would be hurt that she's taller, better, etc.
It's long been a trope that men won't marry smart women, so pretend to be dumber than you are. Not too much dumber, just enough that you can gaze adoringly at him and murmur "Wow, Clemence, you are so smart!" so his little ego will puff up and he feels you truly get him and understand him.
That’s just the classic cope and shaming tactic to try and salvage women’s Wonderfulness and #BossBabe status. It’s definitely not that women want a daddy they can choose; it’s that men are just too shitty and insecure to handle taller, “better,” etc. women.
Men are fairly agnostic to female height, in contrast to the colossal female preference for tall men. I don’t doubt there’s some segment of men who prefer shorter women so that he’s taller than her (when she’s in heels, that is, as that’s how women see height). However, there’s also a large segment of men who prefers taller-than-average women because he likes long legs on chicks or because he doesn’t want to doom a potential short son.
And ultimately, all else equal, men will look to expend less time and social capital on taller women, as men know with greater probability taller-than-him-when-she’s-in-heels women will reject and perhaps gloatingly dab upon them.
It’s telling that men don’t leave well-poisoning quips in their online dating bios like “don’t bother if you’re over [height],” whereas it’s pretty common for women to disclaim “don’t bother if you’re under 6’0” or shorter than me in heels.”
And why don't women want guys "shorter than me in heels"? Because guys shorter than them tend to be insecure about it. We can both go in circles about "men are whiny/no, women are whiny".
Short guys don't, in general, want women very much taller than them and tall women have a tough job finding men tall enough to date them.
I'm well aware that online women have basically infinite stamina when it comes to blaming men for women's preferences in their forever war to defend women's Wonderfulness. I'm also well aware that the evidence overwhelmingly supports the "Women Want a Daddy They Can Look up to" hypothesis over the "Men are Just Shitty and Insecure" hypothesis.
A consistent finding in the academic literature is that women care much more about male height than men care about female height. As one paper summarizes in its title: "Women want taller men more than men want shorter women."
"Women want taller men more than men want shorter women" is actually underselling it. This paper with the same first author uses North American speed-dating results (so revealed preferences through "yes/no" for willingness to match). There's a clear directionality in women preferring tall men and men taller than themselves. To the extent men care about women's height, it's a mild preference for average height women over very short or very tall women—and possibly for tall women over short women.
The fitted curves in Figure 4b illustrate this pretty simply and cleanly. Average height women (165 cm, or 5’5”) performed the best in men's evaluations, receiving about 48% "yes"s. The tallest women, binned to 175 and 177.5 cm (5’9 and 5’10 or taller, respectively), are penalized all the way down to... a "yes" rate of 45%. The shortest women, binned to 152.5 and 155 cm (5’0” or shorter and 5’1”, respectively), also received a "yes" rate of about 45% or so. On the other hand, it's Mendoza Line vs. MVP-caliber for men, where the yes rate is 20% for men 165cm (5’5”) or shorter, rising to about 32% by 180cm (5’11”), to about 37% by the 192.5 cm (6’4”) or greater bin—a monotonic increase throughout. For men, taller is always better, shorter always worse throughout the bins shown. Across all height spectrums women got more "yes"s than men.
Figure 5 is an amusing complement to Figure 4b. This time it shows evaluations based on male-female-pairing height differentials.
Using the curve that was fit, men most preferred women who were about 5 cm shorter than them, giving a "yes" response about 47% of the time to such women. For women 15 cm or more taller than them, this drops to a whopping... 44% or so. Ugh, stupid men and their insecurities punishing women 15 cm taller than them by a whole 3%. Men need to feel big next to a woman to feel secure so they gave “yes” responses to women 15 cm shorter than them at a skyhigh rate of… 46%. This only declines further to 44% for women 25 cm shorter than them, matching the figure for women 15 cm taller than them or more.
In contrast, women most preferred men who were about 25 cm (10 in) taller than them, at a "yes" rate of about 34%. For men at their height, this drops down to about 24%. For men 15 cm shorter than them or more, this drops further to about 13%. The increase is linear from the -15 cm bin to 15 cm before—while the increase continues—diminishing returns start to kick in. Similar story with Figure 5 as to Figure 4b. Women care a lot more about male height than vice versa. If anything men reward rather than penalize much taller women, and penalize rather than reward much shorter women.
Interestingly, the highest point estimate attained was that of men giving a 59% or so yes rate to women 15 cm taller than them. While it could be a statistical artifact, perhaps there is indeed a population of short kings out there looking for some snu-snu or hoping that a potential son doesn't suffer the same fate. On the flip side, Male "yes"s for women start declining after 5 cm on the curve, 7.5 cm if using point estimates, again suggesting a slight aversion to women they tower over.
Thus, the evidence is peskily inconsistent with the hypothesis that women's revealed preferences for tall/taller men is due to shorter men being Shitty and Insecure, as men's own revealed preferences don't even express such a mirrored preference for short/shorter women. However, it's peskily consistent with the hypothesis of women wanting a daddy they can look up to, someone who makes them feel like powerless children.
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You can find a lot more men willing to date taller women than women willing to date shorter men. Just like how being fat tends to impact a woman's attractiveness much more than a man's. Both sexes can be shallow, but because they are different they are shallow in different ways.
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Yeah, it definitely seems like women are a lot more hung up on height than men. And I agree that when men do go for shorter women, it's more of a response to anticipated female preference an independent preference.
The same is true for other things, such as career accomplishment. At some level, a lot of men know that if the woman can't look up to him, there's a big risk that she will lose interest.
Ultimately, we are dealing with two hypotheses: The "fragile male ego" hypothesis (men have a strong need to feel superior to their female partners); and the "anticipated female hypergamy" hypothesis (men are reluctant to enter relationships where the woman will feel superior).
Here are a couple of thought experiments:
Suppose there's a short guy (let's say 5'7") at a bar or a night club who's looking to have a good time. A tall girl (let's say she's 5'9") approaches him and expresses sincere interest in going back to his place to have some fun together. Is he going to turn her down due to her height? Of course not.
Of course one could argue that this is just a quick fling, and for quick flings men care more about sexual release than their need to feel superior to the woman. So let's change the thought experiment a bit:
Suppose there's a short guy (let's say 5'7") at a bar or a night club who's looking to have a good time. He has a choice been approaching a tall girl (5'9") or seeking out someone shorter than him. What will he do? In that case, there's a very good chance that he won't bother approaching the tall girl and will instead go for someone short.
Ok, so why does the man's attitude change from "totally DTF" to "next!" depending on whether or not he's the one doing the approaching?
The obvious and simple explanation is the "anticipated hypergamy" hypothesis is in fact correct. And I'm pretty confident that most men would be open to dating a woman who is taller than them; more accomplished than them; etc. provided the man believes that the woman is sincerely into him and she is otherwise desirable.
To an extent I agree, but I think part of this is that (1) in online dating, men are in a much weaker bargaining position than women so they are reluctant to openly and categorically rule out prospects; and (2) men are aware at some level that due to female in-group bias, a woman will be turned off by any firm qualification rules, even if she meets the qualifications. So for example, if a man belongs to Race X, and he sees a woman's dating profile which says "No men from Race Y! Race X preferred," the man is going to be happy about it. He will think he has a leg up with with this woman. By contrast, if a woman belongs to Race X, and she sees a man's dating profile which says "No women from Race Y! Race X preferred," chances are that if she interacts with the guy at all, it will only be to tell him what a racist jerk he is.
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To be fair, women flirt by being ditzy, and many don't realize they're doing it. Acting dumber than you are is attractive to men less because they want stupid women and more for the same reason lots of other flirty behaviors are.
In the Good Old Bad Old Days of traditional marriages, women were meant to manage their husbands. Not so much formal training, more along the lines of "men like X, they don't like Y, if you want Z you must do this and not do that". Men, bless 'em, can be trained to think they're the Big Cheese Head of the Household while the 'little woman' is running him and it. Just be slightly ditzy, as you say, and the other things. Remember that book The Rules from thirty years back? or the kind of advice handbooks often mocked by modern women about meeting Hubby at the door in makeup and pearls holding his slippers?
Now, traditional man-management comes in here; whereas the advice is:
The realistic view of domestic life and marriage is that Master is not always fair, truthful, and handling things with integrity. So to make sure money is put by for the bills, or that he doesn't ruin it all with his drinking, you have to manipulate him. It's all for his own good, after all! Make him think it's his idea in the first place and he'll docilely follow along.
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Is it that they want less intelligent women per se, or is it that at some level they anticipate that if the woman believes herself to be the smarter one, it will cause problems in any relationship?
Men don’t want less intelligent women, they just mistake acting dumb for flirting because it often is.
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In the current year, neither. Both the expressed and revealed preference of men who are not pumping-and-dumping is for the highest-IQ woman they can get (other things being equal, which they rarely are).
Historically, men were supposed to (and presumably did) want a woman who wouldn't talk back to them in public. Pretending to be dumb on a date, particularly if the man knows you are not really dumb, is signalling that you are that kind of woman.
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I have seen many girls who put "I'm 5'11'', please be taller" in the bio, not a single one who'd put "I'm 5'11'', short kings come here". The dearth of short guys pairing up with taller girls, on face, appears to be entirely by choice of said girls. On the flipside, in spaces where men don't feel like they have to posture for women's (or men's) respect or approval, many state (honestly, I must assume) their desire for tall mommies.
Where do you find guys who say they don't want taller girls?
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LOL, no. Because if she's better than him at some traditionally masculine quality, she'll despise him for it.
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KT Tatara's the earliest form I (... and Grok/Claude...) can find.
That said, I'll give this the same criticism I do as aiislove's perspective: there are other values, some orthogonal and some contradictory; there is value for the mere presence of a second view even where it is not as strong as yours.
I mean, I don't know that this disagrees with the point -- in this framing, "the value of T&A" is a value that is orthogonal to "shorter, weaker, poorer, dumber, more boring," etc.
That said, while the joke is funny and it makes its point, I agree with you that reality doesn't say that T&A is the only thing men care about. "Poorer, weaker, dumber, more boring, more cowardly," isn't "not at all rich, not at all smart, not at all funny, not at all brave." In raw material terms, a woman in a two-income home, even if she takes home less pay, still contributes significantly to the household income.
Women are generally hypergamous, but not wildly so -- "peasant girl marries the prince" is a fantasy trope, but when actual princes marry, they marry members of the nobility, often just a step or two down from themselves. Or in modern times just a hot actress, I guess the joke lands a bit there, Meghan Markle got a damn good deal regardless of how she feels. I guess Kate Middleton wasn't noble either. She is beautiful, but in a refined way no one would hesitate praising in her presence, so I'll give half points on that one. This generation of princes can't be separated from their father's own desire for the commoner over the lady. Perhaps the takeaway here is that men don't care about their partner's status to a greater degree than women do care about theirs.
I don't feel any attraction to status, strength, wealth, but I do for intelligence and humor. I look for alignment on the ability to think about things intellectually and discuss them and a sense of humor that's compatible with mine. If anything, I kind of feel like I don't have the burden of hypergamy: if I meet someone at all attractive and they're kind and smart and funny, even if less so than me, I don't feel like I'm 'dating down' to fall for them. Their presence gets to be a place where I can be the best version of myself.
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Aren't you overreacting a bit?
I think it's a pretty accurate summary of what the average woman hears when a man tries to talk about SMV with her, and probably why OP's female friends don't want to talk about the subject with him.
I'd add a signal for "you're too unattractive for me to be interested in dating" to the list too.
It's still unhinged.
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Ok, so then the question is, why is this what the average woman hears when it's not actually what is being said?
Because people say things they don't mean and mean things they don't say all the time. One of the best ways to ruin your life as a woman is the believe a man that says "I'll stay with you for the rest of my life and use all my resources to raise our children together" and doesn't mean it. Since the average man doesn't go around talking about how a woman's SMV will drop as she gets older and has more children, a cautious woman has little to lose by treating the subject as a signal against long-term commitment, and may avoid a very bad outcome by doing so.
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I think part of it is that when men discuss these issues, it suggests that they are part of an online subculture which is perceived as being hostile to women. At a minimum, that online subculture doesn't follow the normal rules that (1) you should never say anything unflattering about women as a group; (2) women's needs, desires, feelings, and well-being should be prioritized over those of men; etc.
One thing that's interesting about women is that unlike men, they have strong in-group bias. Here's an example of what I mean:
Suppose a man is Race X and he sees an online dating profile of a woman. And that profile says "NO men from Race Y! I prefer men of Race X" Most men in that situation would think to themselves "Great, I already have a leg up with this woman." By contrast, if a woman of Race X sees a dating profile of a man who says "No women from Race Y! I prefer women of Race X," she is going to be offended on behalf of her sisters from Race Y. She will think the man is a creepy fetishist. If she messages the guy, it will probably be just to tell him how much of a jerk he is.
The reality is that most men have certain sexual/romantic preferences and ideas when it comes to women. But generally speaking these cannot be discussed openly with women the man is interested in.
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The same reason why when a woman says "it's not you, it's me, I'm just not ready right now", what a dating-savvy man hears is "it's absolutely you".
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