This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Update on the Black Teens Versus Pregnant Nurse story.
This twitter thread seems like a reasonable summary. I know it's not entirely unbiased, but absent additional contradictory evidence, the story seems to basically check out like this:
Kids had checked out the ebikes for a ride, and docked them before the 45-minute "free" period ended, planning to undock them to resume riding. (This is apparently a pretty common practice?)
They're sitting on the bikes chilling, when Comrie, the pregnant nurse, approaches and asks to have one of the bikes.
The teens say no, unmoved by her appeals for consideration for her pregnancy.
She scans (checks out) a bike one of the kids is sitting on, and tries to take it.
The kerfluffle we saw on video ensues. The kids apparently filmed it with a legitimate fear that she would turn it into "gang of teens harasses pregnant white lady."
So basically, no one looks like an entirely innocent victim here. The kids were just hanging out in preparation to check out the bikes again, but since they were docked, you don't really get to "call dibs" on a bike you are not currently renting. Technically Comrie was entitled to take an available bike; the kids shouldn't have been squatting on them. They were also kind of jerks for not showing a little compassion for an obviously pregnant woman (their version is that if they'd given up the bike, one of them would have had to find some other way to get back to the Bronx).
That said, deciding "Screw you, I'm taking your bike anyway, get off" wasn't great behavior on her part, even if legally justified. I cut her more slack because apparently she just got off a 12-hour shift, and she was pregnant.
However, even if the teens were perhaps being inconsiderate and less than gentlemanly, the narrative that's basically portrayed them as ganging up on her and trying to steal her bike appears to be inaccurate.
Wait, what? In the video don't we see the nurse sitting on the bike? How the fuck did that happen? This chain of events as given makes no sense with the video of the nurse sitting on the bike.
Unless my eyes were lying to me, I call complete bullshit.
I can think of an explanation that fits the "teens trying to take her bike" narrative, and one that fits the "she tried to take the bike" narrative. You probably can too.
No, I literally cannot imagine a scenario where a pregnant woman successfully forces a teenaged male off a bike he doesn't want to be removed from, and takes his place. Especially not without everyone falling over in a tangled mess and getting scrapes and cuts all over their hands, elbows and knees. Probably some decent bruising as well. I especially cannot imagine such a thing happening with not just 1 teenage male present, but 5. Its not just a physical impossibility, it boggles the mind the consider the psychology of the person who thinks thats a thing they could pull off.
That's not the scenario I am imagining.
The scenario I am imagining is she says "Get off that bike!" and swipes her card, and the kid, not wanting to get into a shoving match with a pregnant lady or have her scream that he's sitting on a bike that she just paid for, gets off and loudly protests, as she pulls the bike out and the other kids start filming. They're all shouting at her, she freaks out, and we get the story we have now.
You have consistently been the voice of reason. Until now. This, of all dumb culture war topics, is what got you.
Oh well, we all have our failings. Mine greater than yours on internet forums. But this one is bad.
Not the voice of reason. The voice of neutrality. These are often confused for each other, but the truth does NOT always lie in the middle.
More options
Context Copy link
That you think this is amazing, and rather illustrative of my initial point. I think both sides are slanting the encounter according to their own perceptions of it and neither side was wholly innocent, and the reaction from you is "My God, you actually can see both sides instead of agreeing that this is black and white, don't you know righteousness is a binary value?"
You're right, though, that this thread is a breakpoint of sorts.
Unkind, uncharitable and needlessly vague. And in response to a compliment no less!
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Nah, he apparently went through peak trans recently, but otherwise this is perfectly in character.
Although the mod team is, in general, comparatively thick-skinned, this is still not the sort of response we ever, ever want to see here in the Motte. It is low effort and antagonistic, all heat and no light, sweeping where it should be specific (the fuck is "peak trans" in this context?) and specific (i.e. personal) where it should be more sweeping.
This is a bad comment. Don't post like this.
More options
Context Copy link
Being reasonable and even-handed and waiting to see the evidence is in character for me? Why thank you.
You've consistently been inaccurate in your judgments about me. (I was never on board with TWAW, for example. You see me criticizing trans ideology and think I made a heelface turn. I would gently suggest this should be reason for you to question your priors.)
You haven't posted any evidence when you said the nurse was also wrong, you posted the testimony of one of the sides of the conflict, and explicitly haven't waited for any of the evidence.
I also never said you were specifically in favor of TWAW, so I don't see what I should update.
More options
Context Copy link
There is no evidence here. Yet you conclude the story “basically checks out” which is the opposite of waiting for evidence; it is seeking a particular outcome despite the story still not really making much sense and requiring some inferences that seem likely.
And the story isn’t exculpatory so seems entirely pointless to commit to a story that is at best irrelevant.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link