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Can we talk online dating strategy? I've been away from it for a while, but the rest of my life has been running well for a while, I have recent pictures of me doing cool things, and it's probably time to re-add it to the ways I try to meet people.
First up: goals. I'm male, late 30s, never married, no kids, would like to change the last two of those. Had a few short-term relationships over the years, most from various partner dance scenes. You can probably infer a lot of my hobbies from the fact that I post here: nerdy, wordy, techy. Which platforms are doing the best for relationship-minded people these days? Last time around I signed up for Bumble, Hinge, and Tinder; and had the most luck with Hinge, then Tinder, then Bumble.
I've seen a lot of advice about tailoring a profile to specific sections of the dating market, so that the women you want to be into you are more likely to want to start a chat. For those of you who have had success online, how did you decide who to tailor for? There are a few different sides to myself that I could see myself enjoyably sharing with the right woman: I could enjoy camping/climbing/bouldering/etc with an adventurous outdoorsy woman, sharing a table with a nerdy boardgames type, etc. I feel that if I try to list everything, I make a profile that stands for nothing, and doesn't really excite anyone. But I feel also that trying to present one narrow side is inauthentic and makes it more likely that the profile's Elo will tank (more women will dislike it).
Second: I've become pretty right-leaning over the past few years. Not as far as some of our especially based posters here, but probably near the edge of my city's Overton Window. Is it correct to assume that answering "conservative" or even "moderate" for the "politics" question is a kiss of death? There was an interesting thread the other week about political compatibility between partners, and the extent to which people are tolerant of heterodoxy with an established partner. That made me think it might be better to omit it in the initial profile but also not hide it from the women I do meet when it comes up. I don't want to give up my principles for a shot at a relationship (that way leads to lies and ruin), but I also don't want to screen off people who I could actually get along with, had we spent some time learning about each other before diving into politics.
Third: Has all the language model/image generation stuff further warped the dating app landscape yet? I can imagine the bot problem being a lot worse now. Alternatively, have you used it to tune your profile/messages? If so, how did that work out?
I'm very interested in other people's success/failure stories (on-app or off), as well as suggestions for IRL places to meet people.
Regardless of platform, taking advantage of female mate-choice copying is key. It's probably the most low-hanging-fruit I've seen for men in the SSC-sphere or adjacent.
Don't overdo it, but having photos of you with hot chicks, where their body language suggests you're banging or have banged them, is the best way to pull other hot chicks. Even chaste girls want guys who can pull other girls.
If you're jacked, the occasional shirtless selfie works. Chicks dig dominance signals like traps and shoulders.
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Female perspective. Profile pics are the most important thing for most of those platforms.
You need:
Proof of teeth,
Proof of hair (one way or the other),
Proof of friends,
Proof of hobby/activity (all selfies isn't getting this done). One of these photos should show that you have a body as well.
It would great if you were wearing something nicer than a tshirt in at least one of the photos. If you don't have the latter two types of photos go to some meetups. Lack of friends/activities is very unattractive.
As for the height issue, it is obviously important, but don't know what to tell you. I'm personally fine dating down to my own height 5'6 but everyone under 5'10 on all of these sites seems to be lying so I usually keep that in mind.
Final tip that nothing in your profile should be negative and about things you don't want.
Thanks for concise and actionable advice. I'm astonished that "proof of teeth" has to be on your checklist.
It's more that there are men who don't smile broadly in any of their pictures. Probably serial killers.
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I started online dating in 2021 and I'm getting married soon so I think I'm qualified to answer here.
Here's some practical advice.
Assuming that you're looking for people in your relative age bracket, you should have it much easier than our younger comrades. That said, I think you should target younger generally. Let's say you're 38, I'd set your filter at 26-34 maybe even 32. Assuming a two year courtship period, the prospect of two children starts to dim quickly.
Now, on to what matters to get matches, in my opinion.
Height. Sadly, this is the most important factor. If you're average, you're fine here. If you're tall you will slay. But shorter guys will struggle to match and may not succeed at online dating at all. If under 5'8" do not list your height.
Pictures. Also hugely important. There's lots of advice about this that's quite practical. No shirtless pictures. No hunting/fishing photographs. No group pictures where you look short. No redneck friends. No trucks.
You want about 5 pictures total. They can be kinda boring, it's okay. Dress nicely. Use a nice camera. If you have access to a dog, you will want to have a dog pic. Many women told me they matched because of the dog pic.
MOST IMPORTANT ADVICE: Create an account on Photofeeler and try 20 different pictures. Ideally all your pictures will score 8+ in attractiveness. This is achievable if you are normal looking or better. Do not use any unvetted photos, and remember you are only as attractive as your worst photo.
Wow this is really shallow. Yes it is. You need to put your intellectual conceptions to bed. Do you swipe right on hotties and left on uggos? Of course you do. Women are the same.
Profile tips:
My profile was basic and I matched easily. Some people want to "polarize" in an effort to get some matches at the expense of lots of women going eww.. Unless you have weird requirements, I'd say don't do this. For one, it's hard to know who you are compatible with until you match. Secondly, it will reduce your ELO score.
Pictures and height are 90% of what matters. But you should let women know (implied) that you have a car/job/own apartment. Being super witty probably isn't important. Having your shit together and not being a creep is what matters. The key is to be likeable and make women feel comfortable.
Politics:
For the love of god, leave your politics off your profile! Don't weed yourself out. Most women don't care about politics. They do care about you embarrassing them. The 10% of blue haired wackos who do care will have it all over their profiles and you can just swipe left.
Children:
If you want kids, swipe left on everyone who doesn't. A women in her 30s shouldn't be "undecided", "waiting for the right time" etc... Don't match with women over 35. I broke these two rules and it caused trouble when I had to extract myself later.
Yay, you have a profile up. Hopefully you are getting matches with decent quality people. Not ridiculous hotties, but smart decent-looking women who have their stuff together. Don't waste time messaging on the app! You have 5-10 messages max to establish that you are cool, not a serial killer, etc... Every message after 10 makes it LESS likely you will ever meet in person. I would tend to exchange a few messages back and forth, maybe 1-2 a day and then if things were going well ask for an in-person date. My success rate was very high here (80% ish), although many people seem to reach a dead end at this point. If she says no, she was never going to meet anyway. If she does agree, try to exchange phone numbers and move off the app. Set up the date in the next couple days and then don't text until you are headed out.
The ideal date is probably coffee, drinks, or a walk. Just long enough to get to know them without lots of pressure. If there is money to be paid, I think it's nice to pay. Just say "I got it" when the bill comes and if she objects then split it. Don't make a big deal about it.
Scammers:
I was dating back in 2021. Obvious scammers were obvious. Even with AI, I doubt it's much worse now.
what do you suggest besides photofeeler? They banned me (doubly incel, lol)
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First, congratulations! Second, thank you. I think your advice about not messaging too long and saying "I got it" when the bill comes (and then either splitting or saying "you can get the next") match my experience back when I did take women out on dates. Your remarks about politics and children are also sensible, so I think think that most of what I'm doing wrong must be in the profile and photos.
I'm about 5'10". Not tall enough to honestly put that magic 6'0 on the profile, but probably not so short that it's going to be a massive problem online? Given the amount of fudged numbers on people's profiles, maybe the better thing is to omit the number and have a bunch of photos which don't make me look short?
5'10" is fine. It's 57th percentile in the United States and you will get matches. It's true that you will be dead to the worst heightists, but omitting your height won't fix that. I wouldn't lie (because I think it is morally wrong), but I don't have any evidence whether rounding up would work or not. Certainly, setting your height at 6' would put you inside a lot more filters. You might get lots of first date disappointment though.
Yes, make sure there are no photos where you look short. And put all your photos through photofeeler. You should have 8+ ratings on all your photos ideally.
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This is the point of failure for me. Women say yes to a date, then turn out to apparently have zero availability for a date since they're busy every single day you propose, don't propose their own day, and when you ask them what day works best for them, they say "let me get back to you on that, not sure", and this process continues until I get the hint and go away. Or they say yes, then cancel on the day of. Or they say yes, then abruptly vanish. 95% of the matches that say "yes" do not result in an actual date happening.
Back when I was dating (online or no), I had the most success with (once we'd got to the point that a date was on the table) suggesting place, time, and activity all at once. "Let's get a drink after work at [place]. How's Wednesday at 6?" It's not clear from your post whether or not you're trying that, but I found that it opened up better "yes" and "no" responses — fewer flakes on "yes"es, as well as "no, but I can do [other day]", "no, I'd rather not do [activity]", "no, I'd rather go [somewhere closer]".
The average woman on a dating app has like a zillion unread notifications and a full schedule, so batching that stuff up is more respectful of her time and there's less chance for you to fall out of her loop of guys she's talking to. Win-win.
This happens on actual texting not the app itself, and yes I present dates as one message. Most recently, I proposed two different dates with different connotations (walk in the park on an afternoon or drinks a different evening) so she could pick the one she was most comfortable with. She just replied "so many options, lol." [Sound of head hitting desk]
Sigh. I take solace in the fact that men are often just as frustrating and incomprehensible to women as women are to us.
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I suppose that's why guys are told to basically go "I will be at X on Y, be there if you want".
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Keep your head up, King. Dealing with female passivity, flakiness, and fickleness is a universal frustration for men in dating, one that transcends space and time.
Your experience is well-illustrated by this roughly paraphrased and translated Latin American Spanish meme:
Guy: So when are you free to hang-out
Girl: Anytime you want 😊
Guy: How about tomorrow?
Girl: No, I can’t tomorrow
Guy: Monday?
Girl: Can’t Monday.
Guy: What about Thursday?
Girl: Thursday? Can’t either.
Guy: When then?
Girl: Anytime you want 😊
Even after getting her number, getting a girl to agree on a time to meet and having her actually show up instead of flaking is like pulling teeth. Girls are so passive that they often won’t offer any assistance at all through the process when they aren’t actively thwarting you, e.g., refraining from disclosing their availability so you have to play scheduling battleship, hoping you can read her mind such that you manage to call out a time that works on the first or second try (because the more guesses it takes, the more desperate you look and the more her remaining attraction for you is killed).
I’d guess my success rate for getting a number from a message off social media and online dating combined is about 1/25. Once a message is obtained, the success rate for getting a date arranged and her showing up is roughly 1/5. However, if she shows up, the probability of me banging her on the first date is like 4/5, especially since I try to chess-game it such that the date occurs at my place (which can be a negotiation process in and of itself). Or more succinctly stated:
P(Number Obtained | Message): 1/25
P(Date Realised | Number Obtained): 1/5
P(Bang | Date Realised): 4/5
These are all very much approximate figures picked in the moment, of course, to capture the spirit and degrees of magnitude. I totally feel you on the second step there being particularly aggravating. After grinding to get a number, there are still multiple hoops to jump through before a first date can occur—it feels so close yet so far—and if you fumble the prospect during that step, it’s often seemingly due to no fault of your own, little that you can point to where you could execute better next time.
Going back to the grind, playing the numbers game, and maintaining a deep prospect pool is the best solution.
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Signing on kind of just to follow along, as I'm in an extremely similar spot with you. I also got back on the apps myself a few days ago.
Thus far I've had very little luck, just a handful of matches and nothing that's gone anywhere. I did make a fairly "generalist" kind of profile and right now I actually do hypothesize that it's not targeted at any particular type of girl well enough; like perhaps I'm not emphasizing any specific part of my personality or interests enough to grab someone's attention. I think my pictures are good, I'm pretty fit and not bad-looking, but not remarkable either. Without rancor, I think if it comes down purely to looks that isn't going to be enough for me, so it makes me think I need to do more to stand out. It's a bit like a cover letter or resume, isn't it? Tailor it towards the job you're applying for? I may remake my profiles soon with that in mind.
As you note it's interesting to try and decide, therefore, who you want to catch. I volunteer at a used bookstore and my house is full of books; some girls are into that. I also play tennis and golf, and like to work out; a different set of girls are into that. And I like to drink a large quantity of Miller Genuine Draft and then belt "My Own Worst Enemy" at the local dive bar on karaoke night. Probably some girls are into that as well. But I don't know that I can appeal to all of those with one profile. Honestly, I'm sort of considering making three very different profiles on three apps. What could go wrong?
One thing I'll add: on Bumble I see plenty of girls who list their politics as "conservative." Far more than I would've expected. Admittedly I live in a big Midwestern metro and not on the coast, but still. That's an option, they do exist; and I think there's no way I'm going to match them with my profile set up as it currently is: with no politics listed. Really I only just thought of this. I kind of wonder if having no politics listed is actually a turnoff. I'm sure it varies.
It is curious to be back in the dating scene in 2023. I dated extensively in my 20s, and every girl I was with, I met in person somehow. At least at that time, the old advice did hold up, that you could meet mates just by doing interesting things. I dated a girl from NaNoWriMo; I dated a girl I met at an anime convention. I dated a girl I met at some random party, and one I met at a Meetup.com meetup, and a friend of a friend who I met at a bonfire. By some quirk of timing, I have had absolutely no success of this kind since the Covid-19 pandemic. I think that that's just a coincidence, but I also feel like I just don't get the same opportunities that I did previously. I still go to stuff, and I think, "Where are all the cool people at?"
One final thought - I've only actually dated one girl I met via an app, and that was via OkCupid back before it turned into another swiping app. In general I still like the profile + messaging-based dating sites a lot more - I think that Match.com is a great interface. But the network effects are a killer: fewer and fewer people are on those now. I used Match for a while last year and simply couldn't find anyone I wanted to message.
You're getting matches so your profile must be decent. Many (most?) guys don't match at all. I wouldn't worry about trivial things like hobbies. The important thing is that you find someone who is kind, has similar life goals, and that you can vibe with. You'll need to meet in person to do that, so maybe try to make that happen more?
I think even average guys can get good photos if you put the work in. Have you tried photofeeler?
I had never thought of that. Signed up this morning, that does seem like a good service. Voting on some other people's photos, it also gave me a good sense of what other people do well and poorly.
Get closer to the camera, people!
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