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PaperclipPerfector  9mo ago (text post)   31396 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of July 24, 2023

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In my darker (and less sober) moments, I wonder if there's an active campaign against beauty itself. On my local city sub-Reddits I often see people complaining about "wasteful" government spending on a modicum of ornamentation on anything. Faux stone veneers on highway support columns? Wasteful. Planting trees along the highway? Wasteful. Apparently brutalism ugly-ass concrete boxes is the only acceptable architectural form these days.

Edited for Gdanning's pedantry

It’s not even brutalist, it’s actively ugly.

Brutalism hasn't been in vogue for 40+ years. See recent Pritzger winners.

Edit: No, concrete boxes are not the only acceptable architectural form. Frank Gehry does not design concrete boxes. Nor does Rem Koolhaas. Nor does Santiago Calatrava. Nor does Renzo Piano. Nor does Daniel Libeskind.

And of course there is a wide variety of styles represented here

I don't like most of the Pritzger winners, I went and looked at each of your links, and everyone except Santiago(whose building all look like different shots of the same building, lots of curves, I hate them all as well) has at least one 'concrete box' building. Sure, maybe it is actually a glass and steel box, and it is on it's side, or a glass and steel trapezoid, but personally, 'concrete box' is not a literally description. I would bet that the average person who complains about 'modern architecture', and 'brutalism', and 'concrete boxes', would also hate everything in Rem Koolhaas's portfolio, even if none of them are technically any of those things. Could you please tell me an acceptable short hand so that I can complain about these things without someone complaining that I am using the wrong terms of art. It is not as simple as all new buildings, the campus in the AIA link is mostly fine, although there are modern(though probably not technically) elements that I think strictly detract from the design. Is there a word or phrase that I can use to properly express my distaste for most (maybe all) architectural trends that have emerged over the last 50-100 years?

I don’t know why there has to be a single word, nor if there can be a single word, that encompasses this and this and this. And if there is a single word, "Brutalist" isn't it.

Moreover, none of those are boxes. OTOH, if, as you say, "concrete box" includes steel and glass boxes, then this counts, yet I dare say that most who complain about post-WWII architecture would find that more attractive than the examples above.

Moreover, most of these are better described as concrete boxes than any of the examples at the top. As is this. Heck, the Empire State Building is essentially a box with spire stuck on top.

And, frankly, if someone said, "I hate Rem Koolhaas because I hate concrete boxes," I would have a hard time taking him seriously.

Upon further reflection, I believe the term I'm looking for is 'inhuman.' To me, those three buildings feel inhuman, ugly, and unnatural. They seem like the creations of a lotus eater who began with a peculiar shape, and then attempted to transform that design into a functional building after the fact, rather than starting with human-friendly, functional spaces and adding aesthetic elements later to enhance their beauty.

These buildings remind me of high-fashion that seldom leaves the runway, worn perhaps only by the designers themselves, or the avant-garde in gastronomy featuring frozen bubbles of crab purée crowned with sea water-infused foam. The objective there isn't to create good clothes or delicious food, rather to create 'art', and in doing so, the primary purpose, and an ineffable authenticity is lost.

When you couple this with the degradation of fine art more generally, I think everything comes together. Modern architects, it seems, are crafting ugly art installations that begrudgingly take on the role of 'buildings' out of necessity.

Yes, that is probably a better term. Though it doesn't capture why. But no single term could.

Though I would take issue with your assumptions about lack of functionality. The first one, as far as I can tell, is perfectly functional. It appears to be, essentially, a set of rectangular boxes stacked on top of one another, just like a regular building. The boxes are just stacked very differently. The Seattle Central Library building is pretty much a standard big library inside. Also, I can attest that when this was used as an art museum, it was highly functional, and clearly designed to facilitate patron flow between galleries. The Walt Disney Concert Hall is renowned for its acoustics and this article by a professional musician says, "I am always speechless when architec­ture manages to support the purpose of the space so congenially."

Finally, as for aesthetics, the first link above evokes a treehouse to me, which is a nod both to nature and childhood. The last, to me, evokes flight or a sense of soaring, which for many people is emotionally resonant. So I am not sure that inhuman or unnatural are entirety fair descriptors; at the very least, reasonable minds can differ.

Heck, the Empire State Building is essentially a box with spire stuck on top.

Oh come now.

The point is that it is no less a "concrete box" than most of what dude is calling a "concrete box." Ie, it is a bunch of boxes glued together. His terminology doesn’t work.

More specifically, I personally think that the Empire State Building is more attractive than the Bilbao Guggenheim, but obviously not because it is less of a "concrete box" as he defines it. Ditto re this building versus Bilbao

Again, his terminology doesn’t capture the relevant differences.

And, I like the Empire State Building more than whatever they are calling the Sears Tower these days, despite having them having same essential form of a bunch of rectangles glued together. The differences lie elsewhere.

Few would describe works such as the 2020 or 2012 winners as beautiful. The term brutal might even be used, of course that would be completely wrong because the academic definition of the word denies any usage by common folk.

Yeah, these are pretty freaking ugly. Like, the whole Brutalist thing made sense after WWII, when European cities were bombed out, industrial machinery was available to a greater extent than in ages past, and reinforced concrete was fairly inexpensive. At least, it made sense to some degree...figuring out how to build cheap half decent buildings out of reinforced concrete is a worthy goal.

This is the usual facile reply to complaints about the ugly architecture of the 20th and 21st centuries. Uh, you complain about the ugliness of modern brutalist buildings, but actually modernism and brutalism are separate architectural movements, and the current-year trend of ugly concrete boxes and geometric turds is called something else.

You don't need to be versed in the jargon of an insular artfield to criticize its output, especially for architecture where this output is forced upon millions of unwilling victims to suffer daily.

Dude, modernism predates Brutalism. The point is not that contemporary architecture is beautiful, nor that is ugly. It is that if you are going to criticize contemporary architecture, then it helps to come across as knowing what you are talking about. Take a look at the newest buildings built in NYC, for example. How many are brutalist?

  • -12

It is that if you are going to criticize contemporary architecture, then it helps to come across as knowing what you are talking about.

This is exactly the attitude that fmaa was talking about. Sorry I didn't learn the specifics of what various kinds of concrete boxes are called but that doesn't mean I automatically have to defer to the aesthetic tastes of someone with a better grasp of the vocabulary and jargon. Whatever you want to call it, it's ugly and I hate it.

No one says you have to defer to anyone. But it is impossible to have a conversation unless we have a common understanding of terms. If someone says, "I hate contemporary architecture because I hate brutalism," I would think he would be happy to learn that most contemporary architecture is not Brutalist. Ditto if he says "I hate contemporary architecture because I hate concrete boxes," he should be happy to learn that most contemporary architecture is not concrete boxes. See,eg, Frank Gehry and other "starchitects."

And, guess what? With some exceptions, I don’t like brutalism either. But I like plenty of more contemporary stuff. Because they aren't synonyms.

  • -11

Lol, everyone did have a common understanding of the terms - everyone knows what @heavywaternettipot meant, and what they were referring to, even you know what they are talking about. You stopped the conversation and turned it into an endless back and forth on the definition of words, like you always do when people are discussing things you don't like.

No, heavywater said something completely incorrect. And, as it happens, I don't particularly like brutalism, with very few exceptions. What I don't like is people opining from positions of ignorance, whether it is UWS liberals who complain about Citizens United doing things it didn't do, or conservatives complaining about contemporary architecture without understanding what it is.

No, heavywater said something completely incorrect.

Is this a "someone is wrong on the Internet" post?

What he said that was "incorrect" is completely irrelevant to 1) the point he was making and 2) people's ability to understand the point he was making.

I really don't care if that Starbucks coffee is a "Venti" instead of a large and "correcting" that is just pedantry.

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You're not saying outright that I have to defer, but your statement "It is that if you are going to criticize contemporary architecture, then it helps to come across as knowing what you are talking about" certainly carries the implication that I ought to be deferring to those with the right vocabulary.

At any rate, I've edited my comment from "brutalist" to "ugly-ass concrete boxes" because that's what's getting built in my area. As I stated in my original reply to you, my city/county/state certainly isn't hiring Pritzker-nominated architects to design its public buildings.

Edit: Stupid auto-correct.

You're not saying outright that I have to defer, but your statement "It is that if you are going to criticize contemporary architecture, then it helps to come across as knowing what you are talking about" certainly carries the implication that I ought to be deferring to those with the right vocabulary.

No, saying that you should use the right vocabulary does not mean you should defer to anyone.

As for your local architects, run-of-the-mill architects follow the trends set by elite architects. If your local govt is only building concrete boxes, the fault lies with them, not with the field of architecture. Because governments in other parts of the country seem to be able to build something other than concrete boxes,

  • -11

As for your local architects, run-of-the-mill architects follow the trends set by elite architects. If your local govt is only building concrete boxes, the fault lies with them, not with the field of architecture. Because governments in other parts of the country seem to be able to build something other than concrete boxes.

I...don't disagree? I'm confused where you think I'm blaming architects in my comments here.

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I'm aware of the difference. Part of my point was that naming a specific artstyle "modern" and then sneering when people use that word to mean contemporary is just being a condescending asshole and bad at communicating.

The other, bigger part was that no, you don't need to know the jargon to complain about things being forced on you. I'm not going to find lists of NYC buildings, but I think like 90% of that Pritzker prize list is ugly and about half of it is concrete boxes. It really doesn't matter to anyone living in/near them if these particular ugly concrete boxes don't count as brutalist according to architects.

No one says you have to accept anything, nor that those Pritzker winners are attractive. But if you go to your local planning commission and say "no contemporary architecture because I hate brutalism and concrete boxes, you cant complain if this gets built down the street from you.

  • -11

Treating bureaucrats and architects like malicious genies might not be wrong, but would hardly make them blameless. Though really the most fantastic part of this scenario would be them caring what you say in the first place.

Not in vogue, you say? (That's the 2020 winner)

And the other 39 winners over the last 40 years?

  • -11

I think you are on a loser here. The prize announcement for the 2006 winner says:

The new laureate began his career in the 1950s and was part of what was then considered the avant-garde in São Paulo, known loosely as creators of the Paulist brutalist architecture—practicioners whose work, often using simple materials and forms, emphasized an ethical dimension of architecture. He is widely considered the most outstanding architect of Brazil.

Exposed raw concrete is the essential element of brutalism:

Among his most widely known built works is the Brazilian Sculpture Museum, a non-traditional concept of a museum, nestled partly underground in a garden in São Paulo. He made bold use of a giant concrete beam on the exterior that traverses the site. His Forma Furniture Showroom in the same city is considered an icon of his approach to architecture.

How many winners need to be officially considered brutalist for you to be wrong?

The 2019 winner was Arata Isozaki.

Notable early works include the Ōita Prefectural Library (1966), Expo '70 Festival Plaza in Osaka (1970), Museum of Modern Art, Gunma, and Kitakyushu Municipal Museum of Art in Fukuoka (both 1974). Several of his works from this era are considered definitive examples of Japanese brutalism.

These works were cited in the Pritzker prize announcement.

I don’t understand why you think references to buildings designed from the 1950s to 1974 refutes the claim that brutalism has not been in vogue for 40 years.

  • -12

You asked about the winners of the Pritzker prize. I gave two from the last 20 years who were cited as brutalists by the Pritzker announcements. The award is now a lifetime achievement award, it seems, and they cite brutalist buildings in the award announcements.

The award is now a lifetime achievement award, it seems, Right. Which is why they mention their old work. How does that imply anything about what style is common now?

I was not the person who brought up the Pritzker award. It seems to be regularly given to people who were famous brutalists during the height of their career.

If you look at the 2021 winners, in the prize announcement they have some recent pictures of buildings. The top right picture of "Site for Contemporary Creation, Phase 2, Palais de Tokyo, photo courtesy of Philippe Ruault" has rough exposed concrete pillars, which are brutalist.

The award says:

Retreating from white cube galleries and guided pathways that are characteristic of many contemporary art museums, the architects instead created voluminous, unfinished spaces.

Unfinished concrete is the essence of brutalism. Perhaps there was a move away from brutalism in the 90s, but it seems to be back.

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I don't disbelieve you, but it think it's fair to point out that my state and local governments probably aren't hiring Pritzger-winning architects to design and install infrastructure and government buildings. The rational part of my brain knows this is driven far more by cost than aethestics; way less to just slap up an ugly-ass concrete structure without any kind of regard for appearance.

2020 and 2021 both look pretty brutalist -- although that's perhaps overly charitable to 2020, which kind of looks more like a Mexican parking garage, and is a School of Architecture so should get some sort of bonus points.

2020 is a central example of brutalism, 2021 is a related modernist style, 2022 is arguably brutalist. But 2020 is enough to demonstrate that Brutalism has been in style more recently than 40 years ago.

2020 is Brutalistesque, but 2021 is not Brutalist at all. The point is that "Apparently brutalism is the only acceptable architectural form these days" is clearly incorrect.

  • -10

"Blocky forms made out of concrete" is brutalist enough for me -- what would you call the style of the 2021 winner?

Also what is "brutalistesqe"? 'esqe' as a suffix usually means 'similar to' -- so if buildings in a style similar to brutalism are winning architechture prizes, I would say this means that brutalism is still en vogue at least to some extent?

Blocky forms made out of concrete" is brutalist enough for me -- what would you call the style of the 2021 winner?

That's what I meant by brutalesque.

What's the difference? Are there some sort of Brutalism Police that we need to watch out for here?

And if there are, do they work for wikipedia? Because wikipedia has the following photos in their article on brutalism:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/The_History_Faculty%2C_Cambridge_%282354442890%29.jpg/1920px-The_History_Faculty%2C_Cambridge_%282354442890%29.jpg

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1a/Norfolk_Terrace.JPG/1024px-Norfolk_Terrace.JPG

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Habitat_67%2C_southwest_view.jpg/1920px-Habitat_67%2C_southwest_view.jpg

What's the difference? Are there some sort of Brutalism Police that we need to watch out for here? Dude, I am agreeing with you: That particular building looks Brutalist to me, but of course I could be mistaken. But nevertheless, if one out of 20 or 30 is brutalist, then the original claim that "Apparently brutalism is the only acceptable architectural form these days" is not correct.

I'm not sure you are -- compare that French architectural school (2021 prizewinner) with my third link, and explain to me how the one is Brutalist enough to be included in an article about Brutalism, while the other is non-Brutalist enough for you to say that it's not Brutalist at all, and therefore it getting a prize from some committee of architects two years ago is not evidence of Brutalism still being en vogue with architects.

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In the spirit of conciliation, perhaps "Apparently brutalism is the only institutionally-acceptable architectural form these days" is closer to the spirit of the original statement?

But, were that true, wouldn't that be reflected in the Pritzker prize awards? What reflects the institution of the architecture profession better than that?

  • -11

I was unclear. Acceptable to the customer-institutions who are deciding on what to have built; not to the institution of the architectural profession. Apologies for that.

Ah, I see, I misunderstood.

But I am skeptical that that is the case. Eg: Los Angeles replaced a number of library buildings not too long ago, and they are built in a variety of styles: https://www.lapl.org/branches/northridge https://www.lapl.org/branches/sylmar https://www.lapl.org/branches/harbor-city https://www.lapl.org/branches/encino-tarzana https://www.lapl.org/branches/mid-valley https://www.lapl.org/branches/sun-valley

But it is possible that it might be different in redder areas, where people might be less willing to spend tax money on attractive public buildings.

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