site banner
ZorbaTHut  1yr ago (text post)   35347 thread views

Culture War Roundup for the week of September 26, 2022

This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.

Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.

We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:

  • Shaming.

  • Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.

  • Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.

  • Recruiting for a cause.

  • Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.

In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:

  • Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.

  • Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.

  • Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.

  • Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.

On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.

26
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

/r/stupidpol is abuzz with news of both NordStream pipelines being damaged, in what mainstream sources openly speculate to be an attack:

Massive drop in pressure – Nord Stream 2 pipeline apparently partially destroyed

There was an incident on the Russian Baltic Sea pipeline, as confirmed by the Danish shipping authority. The operator Gascade speaks of a sharp drop in pressure in the tube. An accident is considered unlikely. The timing of the accident suggests sabotage.

Stupidpol being stupidpol, blames it all on the west (either the US or UK)... but it feels like the kind of have a point? Russian performance in the war doesn't exactly scream competence, so it would be surprising, if they pulled something like this off, so deep in NATOs turf.

When we were discussing the coming winter, some people were saying "the European gas storage is filled up, it'll be fine", but isn't the gas storage more like a buffer, designed to take advantage of the decreased demand over the summer, to even out the increased demand in winter, working on the assumption that there will still be a constant supply of gas coming in? Does this change the calculus at all?

Is nobody considering that a third party could have sabotaged it?

This is a major escalation in a war which which likely benefit China and India.

Sure, but that's pretty risky. If Russia or Ukraine do it, that's just war, to be expected - if any other country does it, then that's them being willing to blow up other country's infrastructure do destabilize them and to harm their economies. It may be worth it in some strategic sense, but the consequences if found out may be too severe to justify the risk. At the very least they'd need some very believable and reliable catspaw.

I have to laugh at this. China leaked a virus that killed millions of people and majorly disrupted every economy on the planet. They continuously lied about it and covered it up to the point where the intention can reasonably be called into question.

Their punishment? Nothing.

Their punishment? Nothing.

They seem to be punishing themselves rather effectively. Kind of incredible, really, that they're still toiling away at zero covid.

Their punishment? Nothing.

Only because US is equally culpable. The virus that leaked was paid for by the US NIH.

Are they covering things up anymore than the corresponding American institutions?

Besides, the virus didn't disrupt much. 75yo people with 2+ co-morbidities aren't responsible for a lot of critical infrastructure. Western governments got themselves into lockdowns on their own will and continue to fervently defend this decision.

At this point it looks like China is on the way to be the most-harmed country by corona related events as everyone else totally forgot about it but they are stuck in their hypochondria.

The virus may not have disrupted much on it's own, but Fauci and friends disrupted a lot.

Yeah, but they released it in China. That's a lot easier to swallow as an excusable "oops" than blowing things up in Europe.

When I get out my extra shiny foil hat (shiny side out of course) I start to wonder whether the US developed it, to reduce the world's pension overhang (the virus seems to target pension aged people a little too well), in China planning for its eventual leak to cast blame on a rival with a reputation for poor controls.

A virus that predominantly kills people who are five pension cheques from the grave hardly seems worth the effort to me.

Those last six months cause most of healthcare spending. By making people die of pneumonia earlier..

Still, nah. It was just incompetence and hubris.

the virus seems to target pension aged people a little too well

Doesn't almost every disease do this?

Yes, but most diseases aren't as contagious to infect a meaningful fraction of the world's population within a year of release.

I believe a meaningful fraction of the world population catches different competing strains of flu every year.

Err, yes, but...

In the context of COVID, we naturally compare it with the 1918 Spanish Flu. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Most influenza outbreaks disproportionately kill the young and old, with a higher survival rate in-between, but this pandemic had unusually high mortality for young adults.

and also

The virus was particularly deadly because it triggered a cytokine storm, ravaging the stronger immune system of young adults,...

When COVID started, there was much to fear. It might be a repeat of 1918 and clobber young adults, disrupting everything. But it rather quickly became clear that COVID was not that kind of pandemic.

Notice how poorly counting deaths works. Death for death, the Spanish flu cost at least ten times as many Quality Adjusted LIfe Years. Sticking with death counts, rather than estimating life years lost, exaggerated the severity of COVID by a factor of ten or more.

When you say it like that it sounds exactly like the sort of brazen maneuvers that specifically the CIA would do.

I am offended on France's behalf. Does no one remember Rainbow Warrior?

If you *really *want to get conspiratorial on the 'who benefits most' narrative, the US being the obvious target for blame that might harm regional influence, but the Russians and the Germans both sucking it, would give greatest benefit to whoever would benefit most from being the mix of most capable but least maligned in the EU for European influence.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats