This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Consider that in writing mindkilled screeds about how terrible everything is, you're probably part of the problem. Maybe engage in a bit of self-reflection. Consider compromise. Read the aspirational text at the top of the culture war thread. Do something that makes you happy. Touch grass?
More realistically, Trump gets elected, Republicans suddenly stop caring about deficit spending and cut taxes and voila - all of your problems are magically solved. Instead of crying about how bad everything is you'll be crowing about the liberal snowflakes losing their minds over Orange Man Bad and TDS.
I used to. When the people like you were diluted by those who were well-meaning, who wanted to have actual conversations and maybe learn a thing or two from someone with a different perspective.
How about this? If you can manage to write a measured and polite post about any of the topics above, I'll respond in kind. If the though of trying to do that is so abhorrent, then maybe this isn't the place for you.
This, right here, is exactly the thing I was talking about.
My friend is feeding his new daughter on the free expired baby food he gets from his grocery store job, while this instagram play-farmer writes grants for more money than he makes in a year. And you think I need to "touch grass" if that bothers me, and that I'll suddenly stop caring if Trump is elected for some reason?
I don't believe your motivation for engaging is to discuss the culture war. I think you're waging it by manipulating people into passive acceptance.
How would you feel about writing a post about the WPATH leaks and letting other people respond to it, rather than the other way round? Would you be willing to try?
I have spent a lot of time arguing with CPAR, and I assure you he is in fact here to discuss the culture war in good faith, and is not here to run a scam.
You are freewheeling. You have bitten off too large a chunk of the culture war to be chewed and swallowed, and you are metaphorically choking on it. What that looks like is a moment of crisis, where one is seized by the certainty that the present situation is absolutely intolerable, and that Something Must Be Done. I have experienced this myself, a number of times.
The Motte is not intended, nor is it fit, to Do Something. It does not exist to coordinate action, only discussion. The good the Motte has done is to allow people very different from each other to converse. That's it. It is not going to help your friend relying on expired baby food, nor is it going to deliver solutions to the problems you list in your OP. It never promised to, and was never intended to.
The horrors you are seeing are not new. Large segments of human experience have always been "intolerable", and despite this, have been tolerated by previous generations. Your great grandparents lived through a global economic collapse and trench warfare. The present situation is not even that bad, historically speaking, and we have so, so much further to fall.
The culture war is not going to stop soon. The part that has been going for a decade is only one battle; the actual war has been going at least since the 60s, and arguably since the 1600s. It is probably going to continue to impinge on your life and awareness in unpleasant ways for the rest of your life; if we are all very lucky, our children might potentially live to see the other side of it. You should attempt to make peace with that fact, because if you do not it is entirely possible that the culture war will drive you insane.
None of the above is an argument for quietism or surrender. There are many useful actions to take, many useful things to be done, many choices to be made, many strategies to pursue. It is, in fact, possible to Do Something, but it helps to have a clear idea of what one is trying to accomplish and what the actual effects of a given action are likely to be. Lashing out is not advisable, and is likely to be counterproductive. What the Motte can help with, for those with the patience to use it correctly, is to learn better about the realities of the situation, which makes productive action easier. I appreciate that this is not a satisfying answer, in an emotional sense. The truth rarely is.
I see absolutely no evidence to support any of this. Indeed, all I ever see people hold forth as possibilities are "plans" based on pure wishful thinking and optimism bias (and sometimes religious faith), none of which, at least to my perception, can possibly work.
And you were right to, and you shouldn't have let people dissuade you from it.
I don't think my "plan" of "prep to survive nuclear war so that you can clean up the mess afterward" counts as "optimism bias", except from a highly-mindkilled perspective. I mean, I've tried my best to get civil defence considered in policy despite it not being in my CW interest to do so.
Well, first, I'd note that the fall of (the western half of) the Roman Empire was a centuries-long process, not a sudden "Mad Max" collapse, and there's a lot of ruin in a nation. So, first, expecting a sudden end to the current system — like nuclear war — and for said sudden end to come in our own lifetimes are both rather optimistic. As is having enough left intact to make "cleaning up the mess" feasible. More likely is at least another century or two continuing the current trend of slow, grinding defeat, combined with slow decay increasingly held at bay by the consumption of the civilizational "seed-corn" that would be essential to rebuilding.
My point is that to think nuclear war is good because it mostly kills the Blue Tribe is Pol Pot logic; thus, to someone not highly-mindkilled, this is, if unrealistic at all, "pessimism bias".
The reason I think nuclear war is fairly likely has little to do with the CW except insofar as the CW is weakening the USA at a time when its hegemony is being tested (in particular Taiwan looks like a potential spark for WWIII).
More options
Context Copy link
The future is already here - it's just not evenly distributed. A good analogy to watch is South Africa, which got a late start on multicultural technocracy but then speedran tribal spoils and the competency crisis well ahead of us. The analogy isn't perfect (and leans more heavily into ethnic conflict than I think a fair assessment of our predicament would), but by SA's timeline the USA and Europe aren't even close to a breaking point. But this does assume a closed system.
If you want to be more optimistic, you can imagine the situation is more like 1848, where the geopolitical order everywhere is being propped up by a few Metternichs, and if they lose power, all the creaky structures in the periphery will collapse all at once. Once the hegemony of one ideology falls, we enter a Warring States-like period and some pragmatic, ruthless Qin(s) (or Prussia if we hold to the analogy) will sweep up all the statelets running insane inefficient systems.
Of course, this Qin/Prussia probably won't be running a system you like. Just not our current one.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
If you want to get involved in something where you have a decent chance of scoring a win, I'd recommend the trans issue. There are actual structures there within which people can work to push things forward.
If you want a global all-encompassing win, like the progressives have, than you're going to be pretty unhappy for a long time.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Can you tell me what you're doing? Can you explain how the motte has helped you do it? Can you point to something you've learned by engaging with people who don't just disagree with you on "issues", but spend enormous effort trying to lie and manipulate you like certain users do? (you can guess who I mean)
Just give me some hope there's a meaning in any of this. Because I read your "moment of crisis," and you were right about all of it. Everyone who said you were wrong or exaggerating was proven to be lying just because they didn't want you to take action.
Building a family. Having kids, building a good marriage with my wife, doing what I can to make us as secure in the future as possible.
Helping to build up my extended family. Trying to build good relationships with my nieces and nephews. I am pretty well established as the cool uncle, and I'm trying to leverage that to have a significant and positive impact on their lives.
Cementing myself into my community. For me, this mainly means church, and my friends from church.
Building my relationship with God, so that I have something firm to stand on regardless of what else happens, and thus avoid madness.
Beyond that, acquiring wealth, resources, tools. Learning skills, trying to improve the skills my career is built on.
Beyond that, I've made a hobby of weapons development. My goal is to contribute to the general thrust laid out by Defense Distributed, to make gun control entirely impossible by developing methods for manufacturing effective weapons out of uncontrollable materials. This has worked well enough for me and for others that it has entirely shifted my view of the 2A debate from "we have to fight or they'll beat us" to "they have zero conception of how utterly fucked their entire project is." There's multiple entire branches of strategy people haven't even considered tapping yet, ripe for the picking, from stuff that's just immediately delightful for gun culture types to stuff that I don't talk about because I think doing so would be legitimately dangerous. The mainstream debate and the structures attempting to enforce the issues are so far out of touch with the realities of the situation that their ignorance is probably actively dangerous to our society's continued function.
Having a hobby on this end also exposes me to the activist element of the gun culture, which is doing very, very well for itself in a quite hostile environment. The level of contempt they inculcate for federal authorities and for the Blue machine generally is always heartening to see.
The motte has, I think, helped me understand the Culture War, and perhaps more importantly, has helped me achieve a number of philosophical insights that have helped me better understand and accept the realities of life generally. These enable me to engage with the culture war with a great deal more equanimity than I used to possess. I am pretty sure I have a fair idea of where this is all going, which cuts out a lot of the worry and has allowed me to think through, precommit on, and make peace with some of the more bitter aspects during moments of calm. This is greatly preferable to attempting to do so in the heat of the moment.
There's more to say here, but it is very late, and I am very tired. Perhaps later.
And it is not about gun issue alone. The best and brightest's understanding of crucial science, technology, energy, military, health, environment etc. issues is on the same level. Evil masterminds exist only in movies and comic books.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Ah. Was I 'gaslighting you while celebrating it at the same time as denying it's happening?' Slamming the Overton window leftwards on you? Or something else you edited out of your post?
I don't think my post was particularly celebratory, nor do I think I made any comment on the object level issues you raised in your post. But whatever, the one leftish leaning person who bothered to reply to your post managed to perfectly demonstrate all the problems you were complaining about. Bravo.
Alright. Forget about the black person who got taxpayer money for a moment (we can go back to it later if you like). Imagine that I'm an actual human being and I want to help your friend and people like them - what should I do? What set of policies do you think would be most helpful to your friend? Was he significantly better off when he was stocking shelves five or ten years ago? And do you think grocery store workers had it better in 1990, 2005, or 2020ish?
Hello, pot. Kettle here. You're black.
But then, give me some advice. How could I reply to your post in a way that wouldn't be 1) denying these are problems or 2) manipulating people into passive acceptance, short of agreeing with you on every point and accepting that leftists are evil? I'd invite you to sketch out a very brief outline of what such a post might look like such that you think you could have a productive conversation.
This place is right-wing twitter (insert "always has been" meme) but verbose and you're not allowed to call stuff gay or retarded. Accept that and you'll have more fun.
EDIT: Come on guys, you know it's true. Don't shoot the messenger.
You have upset the hive mind and will be downvoted accordingly.
When Trace split off I kinda thought he was being a pansy. But now I kind of get it. I’m pretty right-wing these days on a lot of issues, and get upvoted when I express such sentiments. But defending the left at all from unfair accusations or criticizing the right at all tends to bring a lot of downvotes.
I think we are a bit right of a sweet spot to avoid a groupthink spiral.
The linked photo is my thought on so much of what gets posted here. Twitter does it mostly from the left, others do it more from the right, but it's never all that useful.
/images/17101734210792935.webp
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
This is exactly what culture war "discussion" is. Snide little manipulative tactics, rhetoric meant to goad, bully, and insinuate.
We've been doing this for ten god damn years as things get crazier and crazier, but the methods always stay the same.
Why do you do it? How long will you keep doing it? Will you ever stop? Will you someday say "oh, the revolution has gotten to my stop and I want off," or is the only real goal to keep pushing and hurting and winning endlessly?
Contrary to what Trump claimed, nobody ever really gets tired of winning.
I don't think that Trump "claimed" that. Here's what he said.
I think it's pretty obvious that the first part's a joke.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Bro, if you think that Chrisprattalpharaptr is some kind of leftist demon who just wants to keep hurting people endlessly, you're probably psychologically as far gone into irrational wild overreaction mode as leftists who think that everybody to the right of Joe Biden is a literal fascist who wants to put trans people in death camps.
I've been reading his posts from the 2020 riots on reddit. Let's just say I firmly disagree with you.
Please link some.
ChrisPratt wasn't the most bloodthirsty during the riots, but it's always made his paeans against accellerationism fall a little flat when he said :
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
They're not going to get tired of winning any more than you're going to start enjoying losing.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
Every society in human history, except maybe a few that lucked into having access to enormous raw material wealth, has had people who struggle materially. I myself have been poor before, I know what it's like so please don't feel like I'm being callous. Your friend feeding his daughter on free expired baby food from his grocery store job does not mean that the US is in some calamitous state. There were people like your friend in the US 20 years ago, 70 years ago, and 100 years ago too. There were people taking corrupt advantage of stupid government policies in the US 20 years, 70 years, and 100 years ago as well. Should we try to make things better? I think so, but I don't buy into the sky is falling narrative.
In American history, the people who struggled materially organized to accomplish things by force. Sometimes 100,000 strong, forcing half of the supply chain to shut down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_violence_in_the_United_States
I’m not much of an historian but I have it on good authority that such events also transpired in Russia and China. Even in Ancient Rome, even in the European Middle Ages. So I think that is a big difference between today and, as you say, 100 years ago. They did believe the sky was falling, because it was for them and their family, and then they did the things that they felt rectified the situation. It doesn’t appear that America has anything close to the labor movements we used to have, partially IMO because of the distracting infusion of progressive social identity politics.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The point in your favor for suggesting moderation is balanced by your politely-phrased smug tone. "When the people like you," "If you can manage to write a measured and polite post," "maybe this isn't the place for you". Do you think you're better than him?
Yes, Chris is better than him. In the relevant sense of writing better posts, all this does have some correlation with all other ways in which you can judge a person's quality. The quality of posts an individual writes is strongly correlated across time, and I'd rather themotte have more chrises and less tyres, proportionally. There's a hierarchy - some people are better than chris, some people are worse than tyre, and a lot of noise, but it's true.
The first sentence is obviously somewhat inflammatory, but I don't think it should be. It is - first - a neutral statement of fact, phrased in the simplest possible way - and then, second - inflammatory because people do not like hearing it directly stated. But in order for the second meaning to exist, the first meaning must have come first, otherwise there'd be nothing to be upset about.
More options
Context Copy link
Nope.
As someone who supports some of the causes he decries to varying degrees, how do you think I'm supposed to participate in this conversation exactly? I could respond in kind and we could fling feces at each other while you tut tut and enjoy the show. Or more realistically I'm buried in feces by the largely right-leaning commentariat.
I could craft a thoughtful response to some of his individual points, but what kind of conversation do you think he and I will have?
I could be the apologetic, liberal whipping boy who takes his lumps for That Bad Thing The People I Don't Like Did This Week.
I've done enough of all three. At a certain point a spade is a spade, and a bad post is a bad post. I can link you to massive exchanges I've had extending weeks and tens of thousands of words with FcfromSSC, gattsuru, professorgerm (now desolation, I believe?) and others so clearly I'm capable of having a decent conversation with people who hold very different beliefs. The process certainly changed my worldview.
That hasn't happened in...upwards of a year, I don't think? I'm sure you could make the argument that I changed rather than the space, but then I'd challenge you to show me any interesting and civil back-and-forth between a real liberal and conservative here that's happened recently. At a certain point, what exactly am I supposed to do with OP?
You would be correct, but I'm on indefinite hiatus from The Motte. I do sometimes miss reading FC, Gatt, you, but the value proposition of being here much stopped being worth it. Still puttering along under the old name at trace's spinoff, not that Mr. Bigshot is around there anymore. Good luck!
I see. Despite being on hiatus though, you managed to dig up a pretty obscure post.
Hope you're doing well!
I search the couple usernames I use every now and then. There's not a lot of professors germ around. Who knows, might come back for a bit and see what it's like. Addiction dies hard.
Been better, been worse. Enjoying parenting! Hope you're doing well too.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
I'm hoping professorgerm and FCFromSSC had a better experience out of it, because the example that you selected in the past [!] is... not what I would personally choose to highlight as an example of an extended decent conversation.
He's one of my favorite people to talk to.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It's really quite sad.
I wonder if there's some way to promote more of this. Because the site is rather lopsided politically, it's significantly harder to have an evenhanded conversation.
Yes, a mind-wipe that makes people entirely forget the last ~8 years.
While I agree a lot of people have become too bitter, possibly myself included, I would like anyone bemoaning how "lopsided" this place has become to explain what is the point of a discussion space, if not to reach conclusions, and move the conversation forward? How many iterations of the same conversation do we have to go through, before we're allowed to point out we've done this before and that things that were said and done have certain inescapable implications? Or are we meant to re-enact the same debates, with the same open-mindedness, like we're characters stuck in a 90's sitcom, that aren't allowed to go through any character growth?
The only other way I can think of is to relax the "discussion space" constraint, and turn it into a "get things done space", at least partially. If you want people to stop looking at each other with resentment, and mistrust, you need to give them a common cause.
I think a lot (but not all) of the consensus is more from change in which people participate, rather than through changing minds.
That doesn't change much, since a lot of it is driven by the background bitterness of non-progressives. I'm sure I could have a lovely conversation with Chris post-mindwipe, but as it stands I'm not in the mood to give so much benefit of the doubt to his ideology or to accept his framing of issues, and as a result he has me blocked. Or you can look at some of the reactions to FCFromSSCs position that the red tribe should cut all ties with the establishment, and build parallel institutions. There's certain type of talk that progressives don't like being around, but that kind of talk becoming more popular is a direct result of long-term exposure to Noticing.
Therefore, the only way to get past that is to forget you noticed. Either that, or work together on something that is irrelevant to the things you noticed. The act of cooperation itself could create trust and goodwill.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
It's not just you, and I'm not particularly left leaning. There are way too many right wing doomers these days, and too few people who are willing to have a measured discussion. IDK when it changed (probably gradually I suppose), but I first noticed it probably 6-8 months ago.
More options
Context Copy link
Good for you? I don't know who you are. This reads like you are trying to prove you're better than OP.
I think if you had stopped at your first two paragraphs ("Consider that [...] Orange Man Bad and TDS") you would have made a merited point and not sounded like you had something to prove.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link