domain:felipec.substack.com
urquan
Hold! What you are doing to us is wrong! Why do you do this thing?
1hr ago
Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
The angels being subject to saved humans as a result of their union with Christ is pretty basic Christian soteriology, and an early form of it shows up in 1 Corinthians (chapter 6:2-3):
Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if the world is to be judged by you, are you incompetent to try trivial cases? Do you not know that we are to judge angels?
Angels are also never described as being "in the image of God" the way humans are, although they're considered to have a certain resemblence to the divine glory.
As for the "they shall be gods" part, well, that's also in the Bible, famously quoted by Jesus as an unbreakable line of scripture (John 10:34-36):
Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, you are gods’? If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken), do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?
While there's a difference in the kind of divinity being ascribed, it's also fundamental to Catholic and Orthodox understandings of salvation since the early middle ages that the ultimate destiny of man is to partake of the divine nature by grace. The phrase appears across Christian history that a person who has achieved perfect sanctification could be said to "have everything that God has," to be divinized. What you've quoted is actually the least distinct element and phrasing in Mormon soteriology, from the point of view of analyzing historical Christianity in its broad scope.
MayorofOysterville
1hr ago
I feel like this view is complicated by Mormons services being virtually indistinguishable from Protestant ones. The take communion recite the lords prayer, celebrate Christmas with Christmas trees. The high theology is extremely different but the actual church practices is virtually the same.
MayorofOysterville
1hr ago
But I think if you called Mormons heretics people would have less issue. I certainly would. It seems silly to exclude Mormons when their service are so essentially American and Protestant and they were just one of many sects to come of the great awakening with a founder and a new theology but those groups are generally referred to as Christians.
OliveTapenade
1hr ago
I mean, I'm happy to use the word 'heretic' as well. I think there is a meaningful difference in that in Arius' time, the boundary was not yet well-defined, whereas today that line has been clearly drawn for well over a millennium and a half, but I'm not going to fight too hard over words as long as it is clearly understood that, whatever words you use, Mormonism does not belong to the same category as, broadly speaking, 'Christianity'. Mormonism is not the same kind of thing as Protestantism, Orthodoxy, and Catholicism. That's the hill I'll defend.
Personally I don't like to use 'saved' as a synonym here because I think that means something different. There are Christians who are not saved, and there are non-Christians who are saved. The saved and Christianity are overlapping but distinct categories.
MayorofOysterville
1hr ago
Did they police the boundaries of Christianity that way? Or the boundaries of heresy and orthodoxy that way?
ulyssessword
1hr ago
- Create an ultraprogressive story out of thin air (furry teachers spreading it to children, IIRC)
- Pitch the story to LibsOfTikTok as if it was a real example of leftwing overreach.
- Wait for the lie to be amplified and spread.
- Expose that LibsOfTikTok spread a lie, and therefore is not up to journalistic standards.
- Ignore the fact that they helped create that lie, but still claim journalistic standards.
MayorofOysterville
1hr ago
On the one hand, Mormons aren't Christians. Or at least, they do not fall within any historical confession of Christian orthodoxy.
What's wrong with using the word heretic? I think one of the problems with the Mormons aren't Christians argument is that their services are so incredibly Christian. They worship Jesus sing the same hymns study the the gospels. The average Protestant would completely understand everything going on in a Mormon service in a way they wouldn't in a Jewish Catholic or even Protestant service.
I really don't think that the fact that they believe the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are separate beings rather than united but different in the concept of the trinity is enough to exclude them. Arianism is almost always referred to as Arian Christianity and no one gets up in arms when people say the Goths converted to Christianity. I think what they mean is Mormons aren't saved which is a different argument. Call them heretics or followers of a false prophet but their services are extremely recognizable as Christian.
OliveTapenade
1hr ago
Over the last fifty years or so, Mormons have also made a concerted effort to rehabilitate their image. Mormons used to be widely hated in America, and in turn they explicitly held that all non-Mormon society and especially religion is corrupted and of darkness. Since then Mormons themselves have softened a lot on the supposedly apostate Christian churches, and made a big effort to present themselves as friendly, respectable, and trustworthy - to the extent that nowadays they have a reputation for being clean-cut and nice to an almost Stepford-esque degree.
I'm in Australia, not America, but anecdotally all of my in-person interactions with Mormons have been incredibly polite, and the Mormons have almost been falling over themselves to emphasise, "We're just like you, we believe in Jesus too, Jesus is at the absolute centre of our faith, we have so much in common", and they never bring up any disagreements. That's probably why I overcompensate a little in return, as I want to make clear that I do not consider them to hold the same faith that I do.
I'm probably also biased because, while all my in-person interactions with Mormons have been friendly and kind (and I don't argue "you're not Christians" to their faces, out of politeness), I have also been close friends with a number of ex-Mormons, typically people raised Mormon who got away as an adult, and that has acquainted me with a lot of horror stories from the inside. I'm sure that former Mormons aren't exactly the most impartial people either, but I am at least aware that the sunny, white-picket-fence version of Mormonism is not the most fair representation either.
I'm also conscious that most of those ex-Mormons have had the very idea of Christianity poisoned for them, or loaded with so much negative affect by the way the idea of Jesus is linked with their (frequently abusive or borderline-abusive) Mormon upbringing, that there is no longer any chance of them approaching Christianity on other terms. I don't hold this against them - the Catholics have a concept of 'psychological impossibility' that I find useful, and I applaud the way these friends have been able to find and explore spirituality on other terms - but I can't help being angry at the tradition that did that to them. Matthew 18:6-7. I try not to let that bias me too much - every tradition will have some practitioners who are so fanatical as to be abusive, or to poison the entire tradition, we all know about Protestants or Catholics who are this extreme - but I can't in good conscience deny that the anger is there.
Amadan
Enjoying my short-lived victory
1hr ago
That was three years ago. The question was why he's temporarily gone quiet on Twitter, just when a lot of stuff that's right in his wheelhouse is happening.
Hoffmeister25
American Bukelismo Enthusiast
1hr ago
He is currently serving a judicial internship which strictly prohibits him from publicly discussing political/partisan issues under any account that can be linked to his name. Since he has already self-doxxed, all of his TracingWoodgrains accounts would be barred from politics-posting.
crushedoranges
Can Marx explain the used panties market?
1hr ago
Ah, oops! My bad.
MayorofOysterville
1hr ago
I think these high cosmology arguments are complicated by the fact that Mormon services are essentially indistinguishable from low church protestant ones. The average Protestant would feel more comfortable in a Mormon service than a Catholic one in terms of knowing what to do.
SSCReader
1hr ago
crushedoranges
Can Marx explain the used panties market?
1hr ago
I don't think it's uncharitable to characterize his actions as a emotional overreaction. If he didn't want to be known as the LibsofTiktok guy, he shouldn't have done it. Sokal himself is primarily known for his hoaxes rather than his academic work. What did he expect?
Is it fair that a singular act overshadows everything else he's done? No, of course not. But that's the impression he made on many of us. The moral of the story is that gay furries shouldn't throw stones from glass houses.
atelier
Jimmys: unrustled
1hr ago
There is no possible way Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-20 can square with Christian scripture.
And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them—Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths—then shall it be written in the Lamb’s Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.
Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
comfortable
1hr ago
Mormon cosmology is completely different from the Abrahamic religions. In Mormonism, God did not create the universe, he simply organized preexisting matter. God himself is part of and subservient to the material universe.
Do you have a source on that? As someone who grew up in that faith, I never heard that.
crushedoranges
Can Marx explain the used panties market?
1hr ago
anti_dan
1hr ago
Why does it always come back to food?
Its low effort? I think that is it. Its difficult to articulate why Ethiopian culture is a boon to the District of Colombia if one is discussing civics, governance, literature, etc. That requires actual knowledge. Its easy (and in fact every time I visit DC, someone insists I go to their favorite Ethiopian restaurant with them) to throw down $50 for some food. It is similar to how most people who hate the Confederacy or Nazis don't know what Northerners or American Soldiers thought of said regimes in 1864 & 1944 respectively.
Fair enough. I've probably underestimated the degree to which Mormon theology differs from mainstream Christian theology, cause of how much Mormons and mainstream Christians in the US at least largely seem to me to behave the same and live very similar lifestyles. Maybe I'm not aware of differences in lifestyles, either.
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
1hr ago
My issue with Trace is that he wants to be simultaneously a Serious Investigative Writer Thinker Guy and also a Sassy Bitch Merry Prankster. And that's fine, really, but he also refuses to offer that kind of consideration to others, and also freaks out whenever anyone doesn't offer friction-free clown-nose code switching to him.
Take away any one of those clauses and he's fine. But when you add them all together... bro, what are you even doing?
OliveTapenade
1hr ago
Well, I think I was implicitly tabooing 'Christianity' here. What I assert is that there is a broad category of belief into which Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants generally fit, but which Mormons do not fit into. I assert that Mormon belief and doctrine is significantly qualitatively dissimilar to that of these other groups.
It seems to me that two things are going on when people say "Mormons aren't Christian". The first thing is just "you don't believe what I believe" or "you don't worship what I worship". There are implicit claims about differences in doctrine and practice. The second is "you are not my people". They are attempting to differentiate themselves from Mormons in a tribal sense.
Thus when I, for instance, say "Mormons aren't Christianity", what I'm actually saying is "you're not affiliated with me!"
ulyssessword
1hr ago
The longer the gay acronym, the leftier it is. "LGBT" is table stakes at a score of 4, "LGBTQ" is a bit more progressive and scores 5, and the CBC uses "2SLGBTQIA+" for a score of 10, with bonus indigenous points for putting two-spirited people first. "LGB" is downright rightwing at 3 points.
OliveTapenade
2hr ago
Because I think that historically the Christian community has defined and policed its boundaries in ways that place Mormons outside of it - I apologise if that was not clear.
MartianNight
2hr ago
As far as I can tell the Star Wars license expired already in 2023.
Surely the whole point of heresy, as a category, is to declare something non-Christian.
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