domain:eigenrobot.substack.com
Skibboleth
It's never 4D Chess
10hr ago
Can you clarify what you mean by 'differences'? Because I feel like you are eyeing suggestively in the direction of HBD theories, which I find to be non-credible. Obviously, Germans, Japanese, and Indians are different groups of people, but no, I don't think there is some fundamental, underlying difference that makes Germans assimilable in the US and Indians not.
Clearly the shooter is a radical centrist when they're shooting people left and right.
ETA: although given my flair, I should probably explicitly condemn violence.
hydroacetylene
10hr ago
No they won't. A bunch of them will probably get fired, a few senior members will get indicted on charges that may or may not make sense. The vast bulk of ICE will not be.
ThisIsSin
PC is for progressive-conservative
10hr ago
slave away
Relative to citizens they are slaves.
Problem is, [relative] slavery to Americans is preferable to living in the countries they come from.
Blue tribe technically could make that argument, but because their ur-grievance and founding myth is built with around slave labor, they would never in a million years do that.
They see that the US is very bent on kicking out foreigners, and for them a few weeks of imprisonment between their visa being invalidated and them getting deported would actually matter.
The US is in an anti-slavery mood, and is now more critically examining visas for evidence of slavery. (And sure, one could hold the Korean example of misused B visas up as a standard of "they didn't necessarily know at the time their duties would require them to violate US anti-slavery law"... but that's the textbook definition of human trafficking.)
hydroacetylene
10hr ago
Or more helpfully- indiscriminate fire at Trump coded target: left winger. Indiscriminate fire at someone the far-right hates: right winger.
Your belief in the compliance of illegal immigrants with the law is hilariously naive. What makes you think they will not just run away and not show up to their deportation? Saw off their monitor bracelets and go into hiding? What is their incentive to not do so?
I've been very rough on self-proclaimed liberals and leftists on the Motte, but what you are stating here would be, in my view, a mean-spirited parody of what I believe my ideological opponents to believe: a policy proposal so ivory tower that they're pulling it off the elephant as we speak. How could you believe for one moment that this could ever work in real life?
I don't think even a five year old would think it would work, and if you're failing the Evil Overlord test on something you consider to be a good thing you should reconsider your political priors.
Don't make personal attacks.
ETA: Warning rescinded, I am not sufficiently Kimmel-versed.
ThisIsSin
PC is for progressive-conservative
10hr ago
That is a benefit of having a working legal system
And a failure state of that system is "ceases to function because those who enforce the law are prevented from doing so by the mob". The Mexicans, and residents of other Latin American countries, are very well acquainted with this concept. So are the Italians, the Russians, and other Europeans from countries east of Germany to varying degrees.
But unlike the latter, the ICE goons will not even get debanked.
The anti-ICE faction/mob has already done that for causes far more anodyne than "enforced the law", and this unites that cause far more than factory farmers. (International arms traders are sanctioned by both sides, yellow press journalists and gang members are core Blue tribe constituencies so they'll never be sanctioned, and health insurance executives are too lucrative to debank.)
quiet_NaN
11hr ago
Sorry, I thought that the narrative was that they needed the masks to be safe from all the bloodthirsty antifa lefties, not from violent illegal immigrants.
I agree that arresting illegals who might prefer death to deportation is inherently risky. But I also think that this danger is largely situational. Illegals using facial recognition to figure out the home addresses of ICE agents and then taking revenge for them deporting their buddies looks rather far-fetched.
aqouta
11hr ago
aquota
That guy sounds like a jerk, doesn't he know it's O before U except after Q except before TA?
British police are trained how to do it, and American police could be.
You know, I nodded in agreement when I first read this, my mind going back to old episodes of Taggart, Inspector Morse and Prime Suspect. And a great example immediately came to mind - DCI Schenk in Luther, in this scene, which is excellent. But all of those shows are from a different time. Luther is the newest, and even then Schenk's character arc through the series is he's a good cop who plays by the rules but along with Luther his style of policing is considered outdated by the establishment and discarded in favour of small black women who should be presenting children's shows. The British police don't know how to do it anymore either.
Edit: in fact I would guess there was some correlation between the decline of the British police force and relative lack of non-comedy British cop shows. Because there certainly wasn't a lack in the past.
quiet_NaN
11hr ago
Making ICE scary definitely seems to be freaking out illegals judging by the empty Walmarts and Home Depots we saw earlier
They scare the illegals by deporting them back to their country of origin. For most illegals, that is a very scary thing. If you have payed your life savings to some smuggler to get out of some shithole, journeyed far in shitty conditions, perhaps risked your life when crossing the border, and then get ripped out of the existence you build for yourself and instead land right back in the shithole you started from, that is a fucking scary thing. Compared to that, it matters little if you dress up ICE as teletubbies or in Hugo Boss uniforms.
Personally, if I was an illegal, I would try to slave away for some American farm or hotel owner, because that will mean I will not get deported, and hope things will blow over in a few years.
so it seems like an effective way to encourage self-deportation.
The people who you presumably want gone are not going to self-deport. Likely, even if ICE shot them in the street on discovery half of them would rather risk hiding in the US than going back.
The people you are deterring are the ones who have other options, and are mostly legally in the US. Koreans, Europeans. They see that the US is very bent on kicking out foreigners, and for them a few weeks of imprisonment between their visa being invalidated and them getting deported would actually matter.
Iconochasm
2. Bootstrap the rest of the fucking omnipotence.
11hr ago
Well, The Motte has hit a new low with aquota desperately trying to pretend that the violence, hypocrisy and patheticness problems belong to anyone other than himself.
jkf
11hr ago
And they will be wrong about that
Yes -- but they run every workplace in the country, including ICE.
ICE agents are mostly young and in shape. Their risk of dying of COVID is pretty much zero.
Yes -- and we made them (and everyone else) wear masks all the time a few short years ago. Now they want to wear masks to mitigate a larger risk, and you are telling them "no I don't like the aesthetics of govt agents in masks"? Get outta here.
But murder-suicides are just really hard to deal with
The ambush attack at the ICE office a few weeks ago was not a murder suicide -- it was a targeted raid, and the the people doing it had a (fairly bad) plan for getting away with it.
quiet_NaN
11hr ago
Come on. Nobody will put ICE agents in jail for simply having acted as Trumps goons. That is a benefit of having a working legal system. If Trump used them as a death squad, things would look different.
They are simply wearing masks for the same reason some amateur porn actors wear masks, i.e. that they are aware that a significant fraction of the population consider the job they are doing broadly unethical, and would prefer to be still be treated as polite society by people with such sentiments.
There are plenty of occupations which are not well regarded. Factory farmer, international arms trader, yellow press journalist, gang member, health insurance executive. Working hard to fill Trump's deportation quotas is kinda similar. Some people will think you are scum, just like some people think that people who make a living from sex work are scum. But unlike the latter, the ICE goons will not even get debanked.
faul_sname
Fuck around once, find out once. Do it again, now it's science.
11hr ago
· Edited 5hr ago
It would have been murder one in a lot of states, just not NY which has an unusual definition of murder 1 under which "premeditated intentional killing" is not necessarily murder one.
oats_son
11hr ago
Damage to them and to yourself. Do you think that a man who has had sex with dozens of prostitutes will truly respect sex with his wife? I don't. I think that process works on a more minor scale for every time you have sex, in a similar way that if you admit micro-evolution exists, that macro-evolution is the obvious undeniable conclusion. If you have macro-intimacy donations to many women, your micro-intimacy doesn't mean anything, and that sensation was robbed from you as if dozens of pickpockets snatched up everything you had little by little as you walked through the medieval town square.
Mantergeistmann
11hr ago
The irony is that if I recall, that comic was originally done as a condemnation of GamerGate, arguing that the peaceful contingent was aligned with the harassers and trolls out there.
JarJarJedi
11hr ago
he just got murder one dropped down to murder two for his trial
I suspect this is a result of overcharging, since they tried to charge him with terrorism, while in his case he was aiming at exacting revenge for his beef against health insurance industry, not as a general political statement. So the terrorism part was kinda iffy, and at least from casual reading of the statute, murder two is your regular murder, while murder one is super-super-bad murder where the specific reasons for super-badness are enumerated, so if it doesn't match any of them, it can't me murder one. So it's not necessarily a reflection of any opinion about the case itself.
It seems to me that not only does the left have a very serious violence problem
The Left doesn't have a violence problem. The Right has the problem of the Left being violent, but it's not a problem for the Left - for them, it's a desirable feature. They do not "realize" it because it's not a problem for them, so there's nothing for them to realize. Of course, they would condemn violence from both sides any time it's convenient, but having violent storm troops that would attack their enemies on cue - while being completely free from any legal consequences for it - is not a problem in the least for them. Expecting them to do something about it out of kindness of their hearts and compassion for people who they have been calling Nazis for decades now is plain stupid, and if the Right wants it to stop, it needs to realize the only way to do it is to use all the force they can bring in to handle it. The Left did not hesitate for a second to do it in Covid times, and when suppressing people who investigated 2020 elections, and when stomping Jan 6 protesters into the ground. What would be the Right's answer to much more violent and massive attacks from the Left? So far it's prosecuting immediate perpetrators in a handful of high-profile cases and short raids into the enemy territory. One can't hope to win a campaign this way.
aqouta
11hr ago
I know you can't get everywhere with arguments from hypocrisy and need to stand on your own values. But the level of indignation everywhere in this thread is kind of breathtaking. People are in the same breath declaring that they've been prepared for things to turn to violence and really the whole OP here could have a couple of nouns swapped and read like the leftists calling for oppressed trans women and bipocs to rise to violence that some here seem to fear.
The problem, of course, is that he is fundamentally correct. The Left is not particularly scared at the moment. We have had a long time to acclimate to the idea of fascist violence targeting us, and wile we are very angry about our members of our community being murdered byFascist scum, with their actions cheered on by the Alt right media sphere as a whole, many of us have long accepted the idea that this was going to come down to an actual fight in the end. We do not believe we created this situation; certainly, we did not Create the right wing echo system to normalizing the idea that our political opponents Are pedophiles and satanic cultists sneakily concealing themselves among the general population, whose violent deaths should always be enthusiastically celebrated.
There's a reason the cancel mobs here are going after relatives nobodies and their standard for cancelation is like a school teacher who said Charlie was a bad guy but didn't deserve to die. Kimmel, as unfunny as he was, didn't try to justify kirk's death, only did the same thing that happens on this forum every time there is an act of political violence and try to imply the shooter was on the other side. It's frankly really pathetic. It seems somehow even more hysterical than the awokening.
When talking with a lefty about how they were annoyed that the right fought hard to disown the pelosi hammer guy I pointed out that disowning is a kind of disavowal. It's saying "we don't own this guy, we so don't endorse his actions that we think he couldn't actually be one of us". The fact that "the left" don't want to own the dirtbag that killed Charlie is a pretty normal reaction. They don't think an honest understanding of their beliefs or speech could have led someone to do what he did. You might argue that their fiery rhetoric was indeed too hot and could have led to this but then what leg do the people in this thread have to stand on? You think it's hard to justify rightwing violence from the borderline fed posting going on here?
Pongalh
11hr ago
There are still too many right wingers (mostly boomers, but also some enlightened center-rightists) who think we can rollback the clock to 1990 and will thus aid and abet the left by chiding and policing their own side.
This criticism of these boomers is also a form of "chiding and policing their own side." It's just called intra-conservative dialogue.
jak22
12hr ago
I hope you don't think you can talk someone out of that
I am under no illusion that I can change the mind of a person on anything, people don't change their mind so easily. I only really have 2 goals here.
- I am a genuinely curious to see how people who think different than me think.
- To ask clarifying questions where I fund reasonable. Not as a means to change your mind. But simply as questions for you to ponder as you come to your own conclusions.... on that note, I have one more
The idea that you shared something so intimate with a woman only to break up and her to take that part with her as she walks away.
Would you say your own beliefs about pre-maritial sex making someone more ugly, has more to do with the damage being done to ones partner? That by engaging in sex with someone you don't ultimately marry, you'll be making their life actively worse because you believe that having had this sexual experience they will find it harder to ultimately marry themselves? So by making their life worse, you are now uglier for having done that to them?
quiet_NaN
12hr ago
The Democrats are not going to throw the criminal law at federal agents unless they clearly exceeded their political authorization in an egregious manner. As a baseline, consider the fallout of Abu Ghraib, when random US soldiers cosplayed gitmo. Most got away with a demotion and a maybe a token prison sentence. By contrast, a civilian psychopath who tortured his neighbors that way would likely rot in prison for decades. And of course, nobody went after the CIA torturers, because they kinda had government authorization.
"Government goons are shielded from facing the consequences of crimes they commit" is a principle which helps whomever likes a powerful government, which includes both Democrats and Republicans.
I also do not think that Vance or anyone will imprison the broader ideological antifa movement. They will certainly go after people for conspiracy to commit a crime, but they will not succeed in imprisoning people just for celebrating political murders.
The Kirk assassination and ICE clashes might look like things are heading for a climax, but in the great scheme of things this still seems a tempest in the teapot, rather than Troubles-level of violence. When in doubt, default to "nothing ever happens, politically".
Well, no, but I don't believe abortion doctors are murderers, either. Or indeed that pro-lifers are just patriarchal oppressors obsessed with Controlling Women's Bodies™. That's not in question. It's just that inaccurately ascribing evil motives to the opposition is still the bread and butter of politics, and you don't meaningfully have freedom of speech if you start banning individual instances for being especially untrue or incendiary.
Few illegals prefer death to deportation; they expect they can just come back.
Getting deported is viewed as a serious inconvenience that sometimes happens at random, not a life-ruining one.
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