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What are strategies for finding community in our polarized times? Almost all of my friends, family, and acquaintances are pretty damn progressive, and I always find it so irritating how they inject it into everything. Always, always when I have people over for dinner or something, something comes up at some point where people get into a progressive taking point that I disagree with, and I just sit there really uncomfortably and can't say anything because there's no tactful way to do it, or I don't want to get into a giant argument. Even at recent holidays, the progressives in my family have started inserting progressive variations on traditional observances, and I hate that sort of thing a lot.
On the other hand, I have a group of people whom I've met through meetups which were dedicated to more conservative or at least less progressive conversation. We all keep up via a messaging app, but I find they swing too far in the other direction. They're basically a sneer club, and this is similarly irritating. They're constantly lauding vitreolic conservative commentators like Ben Shapiro and Stephen Crowder. I don't agree with leftists and their takes, but I think this class of commentators only exists to leech off of conservatives, and generally does not put the best foot forward of anti-wokism. More than anything, this community of mine won't shut up about how much they hate progressives. I don't want that. I just want to live my life and not have to hear about politics so the time, not be infringed on from either side.
So what do I do, how do I find people and communities that aren't progressive, or at least don't talk about progressivism, but also don't talk about it from the other side? As has been cited here many times, if an institution isn't explicitly anti progressive, then it is susceptible to progressives coming in and making it all about progressivism. It makes for a tight spot for someone like me who wants to be around prior with similar values, but doesn't want to hear about politics all the time.
How is it so hard to find the Normies ? A good 70% of people I run into have no idea about politics and are too busy with their 1-2 "things" to find any extra time for it.
Hyper-online people who socialize through hyper online activities will find hyper online communities. Yes, you are more likely to run into polarized people in sociology-liberal arts circles, D&D/board game parlors or non-fiction book clubs. But, make friends through offline activities pick-up-sports or music or hikers and they tend to be normier and less online than the former group.
One thing I'd suggest is to develop a thick skin against people who watch CNN once a day or read google-news every morning or listen to NYT daily as their source of information. They have surface level knowledge of issues and surface level takes. No need to dwell on them too much. It is not like they will talk about it for more than 5 minutes, because that's as much as they know about it. Take in from one ear and let it out from another. Like hanging out with your grandparents. "LALALALA, grand-mom I didn't hear you tell me that I should stay out of the sun because if I become black, then no-one will want to be with me." You choose to love them despite those little quirks.
Try becoming friends with first generation immigrants. They usually have a lot for sympathy for those who feel outsiders in a culture, and are more tolerant towards opinions that diverge from the liberal consensus. First gen immigrants are also delighted to have a token American in their group, as they learn a lot about how to integrate through the eyes of the American.
I'd also suggest living with roommates who want to build a community. People are more tolerant towards non-consensus views of a roommate who has built good by living alongside them for months, than a random acquaintance they meet at the bar. Also, it takes zero effort to access your community. They are literally next door.
I like hiking for a similar reason. Your acquaintance is suddenly also your emergency contact. They pass you water if you run out and sun screen if you forget it. Builds good will. Then take the fact that you have 5-10 hours of alone time to talk about topics with nuance and your opinions get to stand by themselves, unencumbered by highly-polarizing elevator pitches.
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As someone who grew up in a quietly conservative area, I was still completely surrounded by politics. Like you said, political jeers somehow found its way into everything - even when we had a traditional thanksgiving dinner, there would inevitably be a few comments about how liberals viewed thanksgiving. I'm now on the left and find the same thing - people and politics are often inseparable. I think this is especially prevalent in America and I don't know if it's possible to avoid it entirely.
Here's how I make it work. I realized that I don't really care what people believe - I care about why people believe it. I'm firmly on the left but have always had an aversion to the hyper-woke crowd as many of us do. It was hard for me because I often partially supported their ideas but could just never fully get behind them or anything that they say. This was confusing because I knew plenty of lefties in my own life that expressed similar views (or sometime more extreme) yet I would agree or be ok with them. Finally, I realized that my primary aversion to the hyper-woke was their poor arguments and dogmatic attitude. This aversion also explains my dislike of other political groups that express similar characteristics.
Once I figured this out, I started to be more selective - If my parents (smart people but misinformed politically) make anti-left comments at thanksgiving dinner, I just ignore it because I know that they don't have great support for their beliefs anyway. Same goes for some of my more woke friends. I only engage, care, or listen to people who's beliefs I consider to be well supported. My friends are much more politically diverse now because even if I don't agree with their conclusions I can at least respect how they got there. Just my two cents.
The realization that even if one side is right and one side is wrong, no side has a monopoly on bad takes or bad arguments.
I rarely see people on the right introspect about the right this way though, which I find fascinating. Maybe the lefty identity is so tied up with being intellectual or being correct that we can't abide a useful idiot, even if it means arguing against our own team, the old left wing circular firing squad...
I don't know, even if there's a lot of infighting on the left due to lots of factions, there's a distinct up-your-own-ass-ness that I see from leftists about any individual's own positions, as well as the correctness of leftism as a whole (even if they believe other people on the left have it subtly wrong) that would not make me think that leftists are introspective in the correct way. For example, I'm totally sick of the leftist meme of "reality has a liberal bias". No one on the left that I see really seems to stop and think, "Hey, what if I'm wrong? Or what if my movement is wrong?", even if they love throwing rival factions other under the bus.
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This is definitely a low-key factor, even when it's not "own side". The iron worker with a shitty conservative take doesn't have the sheer pretentiousness that I see in the adjunct or media flunkey with a shitty progressive take. I think the more intellectually-inclined people on the right ignore the idiots on their side in the same way that progressive leaders politely ignore e.g. hoteps. I think there are still meaningful asymmetries that give rise to this visceral reaction to the woke and large parts of general progressivism, but I'm not sure I can describe it in a way that sheds more light than heat.
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Sneer clubs are inevitable. Moreover, sneer clubs are an evolutionary trait. You will notice that every single community that gathers around a particular topic in some way ultimately forms a consensus that ostracizes or expels nonbelievers. This is so in order to form tight, cohesive groups that remain together under stressful times. You cannot place your trust in someone who would abandon you or even side with someone that is threatening you. Non-rationalists respond positively to sneers, increasing or maintaining status in a group. This is pleasurable for the human being. Why would it ever stop?
As I have so often lamented after small talk laden parties, yes, it really is all just vibes.
This is why team sports are so salutary to a polity. You get your sneers out on the Cowboys or the Lakers, get your two minutes of hate in, and come out refreshed.
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I have the same problem, although I'm really very progressive so for me the constant drift to politics is less hostile and more annoying.
Something that helped me was responding to political jabs and the like with a slightly awkward, stony silence. Treating an "orange man bad" comment like someone farting in a church - something that's impolite and and embarrassing, but not quite at the level where you'd call it out. If possible, recruit a couple of like-minded, trusted people to do the same - you'd be surprised how a handful of people can change group dynamics with focused effort.
It might be too late for your group, especially if the less-politicized people have already disappeared. But it can be done.
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Yep. My old job had a few young conservatives who liked to discuss the latest thing Ben Shapiro said on his show. My current job is full of progressives who used to take the very laziest shots at Trump. We hardly ever mention politics, but every now and then someone would pull out a big sneer about Trump.
That's just the way of things.
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I’m guessing what you’re doing here is looking for anti-woke friends and, well, if the thing that brings you together is anti-woke, that’s what you’re going to talk about. Just like how I tend to talk hunting with my hunting buddies even if we’re not on the lease, because that’s what brought us together.
So my recommendation, is, if you want conservative friends that don’t talk about politics constantly, get red tribe hobby and make friends through it. Target shooting, motorcycle riding, barbecuing, country style music- pick one and make friends through the hobby.
As someone who has done a lot of "red" hobbies both past and present, I find plenty of politics in these groups. It's especially prevalent in activities that are current political issues (e.g. guns/shooting). obviously your mileage may vary but that's my experience and it's only gotten worse in the current political climate.
Sure, but even the guys who hang out in gunsmith shops all day mostly spend their time talking about guns, not gun control. And that’s one of the more politicized hobbies. Barbecuers and motorcycle riders and fly fishermen and the like talk about politics even less.
I mean definitely, but OP is specifically looking for people who don't talk politics at all. Again, in my experience, these people still make comments here and there about liberals who don't eat meat or some government regulation that shut down a stream. Maybe being on the other side makes these types of comments more noticeable but YMMV.
Tell me, are you a John brown gun club member, or associated with similar groups?
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I was going to say, there are leftist groups organizing takeovers of gun clubs to use their assets "for the revolution." It would be insane not have to political vetting for anyone who tries to join, and an atmosphere designed to root out entryists.
For the guys I hang out with, they're not particularly worried about stuff like that happening. Like anyone else, they want to do stuff they enjoy and aren't super appreciative of people who are trying to take those opportunities away.
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Some friends of mine created a formal group for this exact purpose around when COVID began (coincidentally), and I was one of the earliest invitees. Its original intent was to create a network of locals with similar values who could depend on each other for business and other needs — like emergencies. Within a year we had about 75 members who would meet monthly. We had a newsletter and a website, and were starting a local business directory. But it is now falling apart for exactly the same reasons that you state: the contingent who just wants to complain about politics (focusing on stolen elections; all-in on the Trump cult-of-personality) has taken over and driven away almost everyone who was there for a sense of fellowship or building a supportive freedom-minded community. Once a core of political activists formed and began asking for a spotlight, growth immediately halted and now we're lucky to get 20 people at a meeting.
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If they're friends, just signal that you disagree but that it isn't a big deal. People follow your cues and if you aren't defensive or emotional they probably won't be either. Like if someone makes a comment implying the police are racist or something, just kinda lean back and smile and say "oh man that's a tough one for me, I'm pretty law and order to be honest. More wine?" People don't want to argue. They're probably just trying to make conversation on what they assume is a shared premise. If you signal that it isn't a shared premise, but you aren't aggressive about it, they'll probably take it in stride.
Honestly, it's not too hard to acknowledge that this does happen more often than it would in an ideal world (never, presumably). I don't think I know anyone who thinks police racism is a good thing. Maybe someone wants to argue that Bayes makes it worthwhile, but I don't find that terribly compelling.
That humans are fallible is unsurprising, but how to design systems that work despite human failings is the core of civil political discourse. The extreme points of repressive jackboots and Mad Max anarchy are both pretty obviously undesirable to most: How do we choose balance personal freedom and public safety? Who watches the watchmen? These seem like less charged directions you can steer such a conversation.
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If it's friends and family, have you tried arguing with them? Progressive positions are wet paper bags. If it's people you know less well, then yeah I would be keeping my mouth shut as well. It's interesting that this happens to you. It's impossible not to notice that progressivism is injected into every bit of public messaging from everything all the time, but I have not personally been part of many conversations like this. I did undergrad/PhD in very blue places, so it's not like I don't know any progressives.
Are you by chance a woman? My friends and I don't discuss politics at all really ever. My fiancee tells me that these things come up semi-frequently with her friends though. In any case, I get all the political discussions I want on the internet and also with my dad. Works for me.
I frequently hear the same about conservative positions from progressives. I'm not sure there's anything deeper here than "I think my political opponents are wrong." which is trivially true. The main reason I read this forum is because I think it's highly unlikely that politics can be reduced to "my political opponents have bad arguments and are wrong and should
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No, I'm not a woman. I don't know why there's this difference between your and my experiences, maybe in part that I have a lot of woman friends, maybe that I went to one of the most leftists institutions on the planet for undergrad, maybe that I live in one of the most leftist cities on the planet. Maybe something else, don't know.
I've argued with people many times before. It's not so easy to convince someone their views are wrong, and I don't think that progressive positions are so easily destroyed. Mostly they come from deep-seated value differences, or differences in our understanding of the facts. A hundred different times, I've argued with someone for over an hour and it comes down to core axiomatic differences. I've given up arguing, and I'd rather just get quippy words in edgewise if I can, but I can't always think of them on the spot.
This isn't exactly related to your OP, but what is this dynamic? I haven't ever had a woman I would consider a "friend" i.e. that I would hang out with alone and/or text/call in a totally platonic way. Does your wife/gf not have an issue with you spending time with these other girls? Is there actually no romantic interest on your part, as in you would say no and be surprised if one of them made a move or indicated they wanted you to?
Well, usually I hang out with people in groups, usually with my wife and these women's husbands/boyfriends all together. I don't usually see anyone one-on-one at all. Though in theory I could easily go hang out with one of these women and my wife would trust me, no questions asked. I guess I've done things like this before, though it was a while ago.
I find these women attractive, and if I were single, I'd try to date them. But as things stand I really would say no if one of them made a move, because I value my marriage far more than having a relationship with one of them. My wife knows this, and she trusts me.
Do you text with these women, mostly their husbands, or both? Who did you typically know first, husband or wife? Any tension with the husbands?
I text them, but I'm not the sort of person who texts "hey, what's up" and just chats with people all day long, whether they're male or female. When I text them, I usually am trying to make plans with them, or at least showing them some interesting piece of content I found on Youtube or whatever that I think they'd like, or getting their opinion on something.
In these cases of my female friends, I usually know the wife first, which is why I'm usually better friends with them. There's no tension with the husbands as far as I know, though.
Maybe it helps that my wife and I lived in a big fairly tight-knit coed community in undergrad while we were dating. Some of these women come directly out of that community. But since my wife and I were living directly with both men and women while dating, she couldn't follow me around everywhere, she just had to trust me, and I had to trust her. We'd often be doing things with other people in the community, and as such, the suspicion never really arose.
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I recommend a traditionally masculine hobby like weightlifting, hunting, or sports
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I found a rationalist group in my area and they're fun to talk to. People are all over the political spectrum so people rarely strongly signal their controversial opinions, discussions are usually around less inflammatory topics like economics and philosophy. You can crawl old meetup posts on ACX and look for something local, or find communities on social media.
More generally, you can meet people organically in hobby space. If the hobby leans young or female, expect it to lean left. If it's more blue-collar and male, expect it to lean right. In both cases, people should generally be less extreme and more centrist than groups who met through explicit tribal filters.
That's a good point, and totally true. I have found rationalist groups to be much better at dealing with culture war related issues. Though in my area (northeast US), it's still slightly more left facing than I'd prefer, I've been at rationalist meetups where some (but only a few) people are totally sneer-clubbing anti-vaxers and stuff.
My other issue with rationalist spaces is that in some way, it seems like a different culture than mine. For the Less Wrong in my area they have celebrations regarding the solstice, they have a strong focus on nootropics and biohacking, the people are a bit more nerdy than I am, and also practically everyone there is polyamorous (seriously, it almost feels like a dating club). They feel more like people who I really like that I could be friends with, but that I could never quite be a part of their culture, it just feels a little alien. But maybe I should give it another try.
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