This weekly roundup thread is intended for all culture war posts. 'Culture war' is vaguely defined, but it basically means controversial issues that fall along set tribal lines. Arguments over culture war issues generate a lot of heat and little light, and few deeply entrenched people ever change their minds. This thread is for voicing opinions and analyzing the state of the discussion while trying to optimize for light over heat.
Optimistically, we think that engaging with people you disagree with is worth your time, and so is being nice! Pessimistically, there are many dynamics that can lead discussions on Culture War topics to become unproductive. There's a human tendency to divide along tribal lines, praising your ingroup and vilifying your outgroup - and if you think you find it easy to criticize your ingroup, then it may be that your outgroup is not who you think it is. Extremists with opposing positions can feed off each other, highlighting each other's worst points to justify their own angry rhetoric, which becomes in turn a new example of bad behavior for the other side to highlight.
We would like to avoid these negative dynamics. Accordingly, we ask that you do not use this thread for waging the Culture War. Examples of waging the Culture War:
-
Shaming.
-
Attempting to 'build consensus' or enforce ideological conformity.
-
Making sweeping generalizations to vilify a group you dislike.
-
Recruiting for a cause.
-
Posting links that could be summarized as 'Boo outgroup!' Basically, if your content is 'Can you believe what Those People did this week?' then you should either refrain from posting, or do some very patient work to contextualize and/or steel-man the relevant viewpoint.
In general, you should argue to understand, not to win. This thread is not territory to be claimed by one group or another; indeed, the aim is to have many different viewpoints represented here. Thus, we also ask that you follow some guidelines:
-
Speak plainly. Avoid sarcasm and mockery. When disagreeing with someone, state your objections explicitly.
-
Be as precise and charitable as you can. Don't paraphrase unflatteringly.
-
Don't imply that someone said something they did not say, even if you think it follows from what they said.
-
Write like everyone is reading and you want them to be included in the discussion.
On an ad hoc basis, the mods will try to compile a list of the best posts/comments from the previous week, posted in Quality Contribution threads and archived at /r/TheThread. You may nominate a comment for this list by clicking on 'report' at the bottom of the post and typing 'Actually a quality contribution' as the report reason.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Too Weird To Live, Too Rare To Die
"There he goes. One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die."
Hunter S. Thompson in Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
I'm going to try to combine a culture war style post and an "interesting person" post. We've had a few of these "interesting person" posts, with this one being one of the most upvoted posts all time. Hat tip to @naraburns. The good news is that I'll be using a
real, livevery online person that we can all directly reference instead of an example from my own life.And that person is Shagbark.
Shagbark is a twitter personality I stumbled across several years ago by accident. Sometimes, you gotta love the algo. In about the last year, he's developed a legitimate following. 52,000 followers as of this morning. I believe 50k is the "famous on twitter" threshold.
Shagbark is eclectic to say the least. I could try to spin a narrative, but I think it's more impactful to go with the bullets:
Part of Shagbark's rise was due to his wife. I searched for, briefly, but cannot find the tweet exchange where in an young(ish) Asian woman from San Francisco made fun of Shagbark's wife's appearance. Paraphrasing, she said something along the lines of "Good news if you're a weirdo NEET; you can still get married if you're okay with your wife looking like this." Shagbark demonstrated some knowledge of the game by not directly replying and letting his defenders go after the bug lady. Not only did it work, but some rather large accounts came out of the woodwork to do it. Shagbark's signal was boosted and he now, by his own account, makes most of his money off of twitter monetization. On this last point, I am a bit skeptical; as a USCG vet, he's entitled to a pretty hefty basket of goodies that can go a long ways to supporting his bohemian lifestyle.
In sum, Shagbark is a technology hating somewhat-trad Catholic who LARPs as a kind of beatnik nomad / homesteader / flaneur / dirtbag entrepreneur and ... makes most of his income writing on Twitter and Substack. Contradictions abound, yet I cannot help think he does have genuine intent. This is not some multi-levels of irony deep parody or satire account. This is a real human, with real emotions, and many of them are unsupervised.
The Culture War Angle
Recently, Shagbark has been going through a bit of a crisis. After having his child, he realized that he couldn't actually raise her in a dilapidated shack in the New York hinterlands. He's now considering a move elsewhere. The suburbs are a non-starter (cars and soullessness) but any major metro is too expensive both in terms of money and ideological selling-out. So, he's started to look at old busted up cities that could be cheap to live in. His list, from this tweet is:
Personally, I'm hoping he ends up in Wheeling, WV. I've lived close enough to it to know that parts of it are truly hellscapes. I'm looking forward to the plot arc where Shagbark becomes a bizzaro Catholic-Luddite Harvey Milk advocating for the return of coal burning fireplaces to Wheeling.
Stemming from this look at cities, Shagbark wrote this tweet. The primary point of it is covered well in the second paragraph:
Shagbark bemoans that a bunch of
pseudointellectuals cannot find a cheap neighborhood to be unemployed in yet still meet up for beer, cigarettes, and High Quality Discourse About Subjects of Great Import. Now, I've been in enough bars around the country in all kinds of different cities and towns to know , sadly, exactly what Shagbark is envisioning. A bunch of weirdos sit around, nursing beers and cheap cocktails, shooting off their malformed opinions about random topics and letting the alcohol smooth out the edges. When you first encounter this in your 20s, as a brainy nerd, you think it's the coolest thing ever. After you round the corner into your 30s, you realize that it's a lot of talking in circles and well disguised emotional commiseration. Real intellectual work is done via writing because it forces you to state what you mean and the build an argument and evidence around it. You discover your own weaknesses, assumptions, holes. You often end up writing a totally different thing that you set out to, which, just as often, is a good thing. You've dug through the dirt and mud and found gold.Pontificating in a bar is not this. It feels like it the way that LLMs feel like you're chatting with a human. But even a momentary bout of self-awareness dispels the idea that you're really doing the thing. We get drunk and debate in bars to form and sustain relationships of various sorts. We're not there to write the next Tractatus.
Obviously, you can tell I'm thinking of The Motte now. Part of what sustains this site is a culture of effortposts and even effortful comments. I believe most of our AAQCs are responses to topline posts, not the original screeds themselves. If you want to spout off about something random, that's what the Sunday thread is for. Mostly, I think, it works. As the holder of both several AAQCs and multiple temporary bans, I can say that most of the time if there is a "break down" it's because of the personal irresponsibility of individual posters, not something systemic or cultural.
The question I am left with is, however, what if Shagbark got his wish and found a cheap, "beautifully depressed" minor city with a magical bar full of ... Mottizens! Would this actually work or would most of us, being Turbo Autists, shut down in public and let this drunken HippyCath dominate the space? Would there be verbal equivalents of AAQCs or would it all devolve into drunken shouting before anyone got to their second section heading?
Stated plainly; is verbal discussion about any topic actually a road to productive work on that topic, or is writing absolutely better? The obvious exception is when the subject is a specific interpersonal relationship. You talk to your wife/husband/*-friend about your relationship, you don't write markdown formatted posts about it.
Following on that, is Shagbark a greek hero; doomed to horrific failure specifically in the case that he wins. If Shagbark's Booze Lair opens in Houma or St. Louis or Utica, will he find out he's simply created a flophouse for bums instead of a watering hole for this generations Sartres and Hans Uns Von Balthasars?
Well, thank you for putting some things together for me that didn't click, before.
By the way, the lady in question - RealDianeYap - who insulted his wife was the same one prattling on about wanting to be a sex-slave for a 9 or 10 rather than a housekeeper for a 5. People claim she's a troll, but fake retarded behavior online is still retarded behavior, regardless.
Shagbark's wife, by the way, is a lovely woman and he's atleast lucky in that respect, I feel.
As for Shagbark - I'm not sure what my opinion on the man himself can fall into. He received a heavy amount of flack on twitter about his admission that his priors had shifted post-birth of his daughter. Advice he had been constantly preaching on how he felt men should follow his example and do what he was doing - all of a sudden, that didn't fly now that he had a small child to take care of, and he was getting roundly called out for it.
It was about this point where he admitted his big hope wasn't a round-robin bar scene for trad men(or even a round-robin trad-men coffee shop), but instead he had hoped to inspire men to basically settle with him and build a unified community.
Which shows where the critical failure lies, and what his sin really is - the lack of leadership, of charisma, of inspiration, of a passive type of ideological cowardice where instead of boldy stating 'Come with me to build a good society' he instead wibble-wobbled about how men should just do the things he had been doing while making limp-wristed motions in his general direction.
...Okay, I'm probably being very unfair to the guy. I get how fatherhood can radically change one's priorities. But I find it hard to respect someone who's actions prove him to be more than willing to sacrifice his prior principles and ideals.
On the other hand, as a parent, you haven't got the luxury of principles.
Now, having said all of that, I feel you're atleast doing him a bit of disservice. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have the company of your peers to throw around and discuss ideas, even outside of alcohal. I mentioned coffee shops before, and I actually got to see this, where a bunch of old men would come in like clock-work to have idle discussion on various topics, from politics to business to just idle chatter. It was definately interesting to see that in the flesh, and if that's what he was going for, I applaud him for it.
I don't think that's what it was, mind. Conversely, if he had setup his overall ideal community, it's possible things like that would grow out of it organically. Again, something I feel overall would be a good thing.
But it's clear by this point that if this is what he wants to do, he needs to step up and be a Leader, a Patriarch, someone whom others find worthy enough to follow. And that's something he's failed to do up until this point. He might want to work on that.
...running back to your initial question, while writing can cultivate intellectual work, open and skilled communication and debate is a completely different skill. Ideally, one should cultivate both, and my opinion is that one isn't nessecarily superior to the other.
More options
Context Copy link
This is true and false. It is true that pontificating over beers is not real work, and has real risk of being wankery.
However, to have a culture that is doing real artistic or intellectual work, it sure helps to have a lower cost of living so the writers or artists can spend many, many hours on the work in their homes and garages or workshops or converted lofts without having to work 50+ hours a week at a stressful job. And it helps to be around others, not because the work is done at the bar, but because you get credit for the work at the bars, you get feedback and ideas, you get inspiration and motivation.
Having been to many events with intellectual friends I've met through writing online, it has been a great experience. It's not a time for inventing theories or fully working out theories, but it is great for cross-fertilization, getting inspiration, learning things people weren't able to put in their writing, brainstorming, etc. etc. However, it would be a big leap from meeting up once or twice a year, to actually living with them. Not sure how that would work out.
More options
Context Copy link
I have met him and his wife a few times. I have bought a few properties in the rust belt area he lives in and we're both from the same area elsewhere. Very good guy.
More options
Context Copy link
It’s entirely possible to rescue failing cities by boosting particular neighborhoods(there’s a word for it- gentrification). IIRC shagbark wanted to do this in rust belt New York.
Unfortunately, he wanted to combine this with Luddism(lol), trad-Catholicism(minus the guilt), and ideological commitment. Alas he found no takers; most people don’t want to live a third world poor lifestyle, they would rather have jobs.
More options
Context Copy link
Which parts? It isn't that big, and the only parts of it that I would consider remotely bad are the parts of the island where it's all drug addicts. But he isn't likely to live on the island if he doesn't want to have a car. Parts of it are dumpy for sure, but most of it is completely safe, and it isn't really blighted. If he's looking for actual hellscapes that aren't inside big cities, parts of the Mon Valley are much worse.
Was 100% thinking of the island.
Also you might like this ArcGis story map about the Mon Valley @Rov_Scam
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link