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Elevatorgate: Effective Altruism version?Effective Altruism Promises to Do Good Better. These Women Say It Has a Toxic Culture Of Sexual Harassment and Abuse
Does anyone remember Elevatorgate? Long story short: the atheist "movement" had gotten going, many books were published and cons were attended. At one a figure in the community "Skepchick"- Rebecca Watson- was propositioned by a man who'd attended her talk in an elevator and made a video stating - in understated tones given the conflagration it started tbh - that she didn't like it and it made her feel unsafe.
Because this was pre-#MeToo and the Great Awokening and atheists at the time kind of prided themselves on being
assholestruth-tellers , figures like Dawkins jumped in, criticizing or mocking her for complaining about such an anodyne event. Dawkins wrote a notorious letter titled "Dear Muslima", mockingly comparing the suffering of a hypothetical circumcised Muslim woman with Watson in the sort of move that wouldn't even begin to fly today.Well...that led to an absolute shitstorm that split the atheist community with some using it to create "Atheism+": basically atheism that was sufficiently woke, after insisting atheism had a racism/sexism/whatever problem. As foreshadowing for a now pervasive social tendency, it then ate itself with circular firing squads and purity spirals.
At the time, there was enough pushback that Watson and her defenders didn't outright win but she probably won the moral victory. Years down the line most of the leftover "100% atheist" communities were pretty woke, see the banning of RationalityRules for arguing against trans-identified males in women's sports.
Now...
...
...
I'm torn.
On the one hand, I recognize the same tactics (and, tbh, it doesn't escape my notice that the first victim seems to have social competition with males for funding on her mind) that ripped the Atheist community apart. I also find most of the examples of harassment to be of the all-too-common nebulous and vague variety that allow people to claim victimhood. I honestly don't know if people are this fragile nowadays, or are exaggerating their fragility for points, but it is a bit absurd. If you're an adult, I don't want to hear about you being groomed. A "22f-44m" relationship is one where one party is twice as old but it'd be absurd to act like one party didn't have agency.
A lot of the complaints also seem to be that alleged rationalists and effective altruists - for some reason - don't just take people at their word.
On the other hand: some of these (e.g. the final one I quoted, the one about a male jumping into a woman's bed at night) are more egregious and the quokka point is well-applied here for those "good" EAs who still encouraged people not to go to the cops. It's exactly the sort of problematic math I can see some people doing. Hell, people did it all the time in churches, schools and so on. It's not a particular foible of EAs.
Also:
I have to say I find this funny. People discovering that looser social and sexual norms allow bad actors - or merely "people with more status than me who don't want to treat me as I think I deserve" - to accrue sexual and social benefits and blur the lines. Quelle surprise.
This feels less like breaking social and sexual norms and more like the same old problem with mixed gender workplaces under a different name.
I don't think I have ever been in an adult work environment where there wasn't at least one couple. I met my wife at work, I had two other work romances before I met my wife.
If you put people together a bunch, and give them a common interest then they will at a minimum develop some friendships and social ties. It shouldn't be a surprise that some of the friends start taking it further if they share a sexual interest in each other.
I think people should be responsible and be adults. Which is a whole package of norms and expectations. And I'm guessing the EA crowd broke some of those rules.
However I sometimes feel like the metoo movement and some parts of feminist groups want a completely asexual workplace. I feel that such a thing is largely impossible, but would also be a travesty. Once an adult leaves college the workplace can become one of their best places for finding a compatible life partner. Apps and bars are a shitty replacement.
I realise I'm commenting on an environment I have no direct experience of, and going by second- and third-hand reports, so this is treading on thin ice. But I do think the EA/rationalist movement does have a problem with this, and it's down to them all being so nice and trusting and religiously trying to be open to experience and all the rest of the good things in the Big Five/OCEAN inventory and not kink-shaming or being judgemental and being accepting of non-conventional ways of doing things. And that includes tolerance of, if not enthusiasm about and for, things like polyamory and sex work and underage sex (by which I mean "well if the fifteen year old is mature enough to make up their own mind, who are we to say that they shouldn't be in a relationship with an older person, be that five years older or more? of course so long as there is no coercion or manipulation involved", not anything like paedophilia).
That leaves them wide open to being exploited by bad actors. One of the frustrating things for me was reading accounts of 'investigations' by the communities into accusations, where nobody would do anything because they were all so paralysed by terror of even appearing to create rules and set up judgements and impose consequences, just like the big bad normie world out there. There were accusations by the alleged victims that the alleged assailants or guilty parties had too much influence within the group and this is why the committees set up to look into accusations did nothing, which may or may not be true, but the general impression I got was paralysis because nobody wanted to be the one to say "Okay, I'm making the decision that we do this or that". They preferred to rely on whisper campaigns about "of course we all know that if X shows up at a conference or whatever, they shouldn't be let in and if they are let in, someone needs to follow them around as a minder".
Normies would have said "this person is a sex pest, boot their ass out the door and if they keep doing it call the cops", but the rationalists are so much better than normies that they couldn't do such a thing. They're lovely people, in general, and way nicer than me, but too much tolerant of weirdness that does spill over into creepiness.
Yes. This is no different to why other nerd groups are easy pickings for sociopaths, in principle. Nerds often share an experience of being ostracised, and so, are in turn loathe to ostracise anyone themselves -- even when to do so would be absolutely in their own interests. Why do games workshops or whatever always have that one reeking BO dude hanging around? Simple. Nobody wants to be the bad guy and kick him out. "That's exclusionary, and it makes us no better than them." This is the mentality.
Coupled with "anti-gatekeeping" rhetoric -- which I must reiterate, as far as I can tell is only EVER espoused by people who really need to be kept the fuck out of any group or community you even remotely value -- nerd groups become wide open for exploitation by terrible people, who will come in and, not being nerds, immediately start imposing all their own rules and kicking out dissenters in a way that the nerds would never do themselves. Because they're not nerds. They're parasitic invaders.
I suppose my prediction is that the EA lot, after all this poly nonsense gets out into the mainstream, is going to see an influx of people shallowly parroting the most basic EA rhetoric while trying to build a harem.
Does it make me a person who needs to be kept the fuck out of any group if I say "I don't want this gatekeeping"? Not all gatekeeping, but specifically this kind, the kind I see most often, the kind that targets big sweaty guys who are already obviously miserable as fuck and usually hiding funny and generous personalities behind a tough facade built by years of being shit upon.
It is always the guy at games workshop with bad bo. It was funny at first, because there was a guy like that at my games workshop too, but it's not like there aren't other nerd stereotypes, and body odour is such a minor problem! Do you know what I did the third time I entered the tiny store to feel my eyes watering and throat seizing up? I introduced myself to the guy and told him his body odour was killing everyone. He was in it all day so he didn't realise, and nobody else anywhere had the courtesy to tell him. He started wearing deodorant and washing his clothes properly and soon he was one of the most popular guys there.
Body odour, overweight, ugliness - these things are halo/horns effected, so I understand it is instinctual to be negatively predisposed towards them, but to me it also means you have to try to look deeper. Sex pests can fuck off, but I think nerd communities were indisputably better when they had sweaty ugly guys than when those guys got kicked out for making passive aggressive newbies uncomfortable. Hell, the internet was better too.
No, I don't think so honestly. I more mean people who rail against the concept of gatekeeping at all. Once we're just arguing over the specifics, that's a different matter, to me.
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This does seem possible.
I've been in a few different groups that had "sex pests". It does seem that many groups have developed anti-bodies to this type of problem. But maybe the EA anti-bodies to the problem is "make it a glaring issue with the whole movement, and thus make everyone hyper-aware of the problem."
The adult co-ed sports league I was in had the solution of 'macho guy gets offended that his girl got hit on by sex pest and threatens to beat the guy up'. The political groups I was in had the solution of 'ah that person might be a sex pest, never invite him to anything ever again, and don't tell him why'. The workplaces I was in had the solution of 'everyone breaks our byzantine set of rules at some point, threaten to fire them for breaking them, hope they quit so we don't need to explain to everyone else how the rules are still BS that you can mostly ignore'.
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Their actions seem to align more with a group looking for a sexual dynamic that is totally dominated by the female sex than an asexual workplace. For example, it seems that their opposition here lies in the man benefiting from his status, not the sex in itself.
I think you could argue that this set of beliefs or values is espoused because men are more likely to benefit from workplace hierarchies and status in terms of sexual benefits. I also think to effectively argue that you would need to build up a very blank slate view of gender dynamics and values thereof that doesn't hold up to scrutiny because status games are an intrinsic part of male attractiveness (although I won't go into detail there simply because it would take a lot of time) This seems more and more like a deconstruction of that dynamic under nebulous claims of misogyny than any principled criticism of workplace dating dynamics.
I don't really think so. There is competition among females in the workplace as well. I think I've seen more anger among women about other women using sex to get ahead in the workplace.
It can certainly be a personal benefit for men in positions of power, but that doesn't translate to a general gender preference. I've never been in a position to exploit workplace power for sexual favors. I am somewhat happy with that for a multitude of reasons:
I don't trust myself with that power.
I'd be a worse worker as a result of exploiting that power.
I'd probably become more interested in the exploitation of workplace power than the more honestly earned sexual results of my dating world exploits.
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I don't know; the examples of workplace romances I've seen or heard about didn't end up well. I've never heard anyone say "I met my spouse at work" but I do know of two examples from a former workplace of men who picked up a new romance at work, left their wives, got the new girlfriend pregnant, then left her/were left by her.
Part of it is down to change in attitudes; formerly, women at work were expecting to get married and then be housewives and homemakers and leave their jobs, so finding a match at work was not a bad idea (the trope of nurses and doctors or boss and secretary). You might meet someone at work or through work. You weren't going to continue working afterwards so the divide between home and workplace was much clearer. Today is different, women are going to have careers (or at least jobs) even after marriage, and a workplace romance need not lead to marriage at all. So the lines are blurred - work is not a place to find a mate, but human nature means that attraction happens and people do get into relationships, but if the relationship ends then it can be uncomfortable for both parties to still be seeing each other every day because they are also work colleagues. That leads to bad relationships at work and makes it more trouble than its worth for the business employing them.
I met my spouse at work
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IIRC work is now the most common place to meet a spouse, and if not, its ones of the most likely. Of course workplace romances can end poorly, because most romances do. I don't think that's a good argument against them. I have had some regrettable workplace romances. One was so nasty that I was credibly threatened by the woman, among other things. On the other hand, I don't think there are many other good places left in the modern world to find a spouse that are widely accessible.
As for the business, it probably isn't worth it in an abstract sense, but what people forget is that companies are just groups of people, and people want to get laid. HR can't really fight human nature and they're never going to fire top people over getting laid. If you suck at your job? Yeah, they might use it as an excuse.
There has been a large decline in couples meeting through work. It was equal 2nd place in 1995 at 19% dropping to 11% in 2017.
Given remote work trends, it may well be even lower now.
Graph
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That's where it's inexorably trending, not because most people explicitly want that, but because nobody wants to get sued for unwanted sexual attention but nobody has any principled way to handle the situation because, the minute romance is involved, it'll get messy and complicated and people will be hurt (especially since there seem to be gendered cognitive biases here like men having an optimism bias or some men & women being bad at cross-sex mind-reading). To say nothing of the fact that modern norms are in flux and messy.
And, as we've seen, faced with being hurt, some women* lack any moral vocabulary (or tools for revenge, frankly) for describing it beyond sexual harassment/sexual assault. Which companies must take seriously. But, of course, the "validity" of the case varies but must go through litigation first.
The uncertainty here gives corporations an incentive to be proactive (and thus more restrictive).
So it's simpler to just try to cut it out, even though I doubt that's optimal for even most feminists actually (obviously, people of all stripes want the right kind of attention).
* It's mostly women reporting abuse lbh
To be honest, I think you’re spot on the nose with women(or at least a subset thereof) not having any way to describe unwanted attention beyond sexual harassment. Feminism has reduced thinking about the ethics of sexual relationships to a consent binary which leads to redefining lots of things as consent issues, so women who want to complain about more typical bad behavior have to frame it as somehow leading up to rape. Which is ridiculous, obviously, for a lot of these cases.
Good point, except it's probably not feminism but a natural effect of male status differentiation in the presence of women and their observable reactions (yes, "hello, human resources?!" meme), recreating low-class school social dynamics.
I think this is a major source of differences in attitude – in this thread and elsewhere – toward mixed workspaces and generally the idea of adding women to environments where they were historically absent. People who believe that it's an unalloyed good since you can meet your soulmate or something are, probably, just not ugly; for less lucky ones (and who are also not exceptional in some way), flirting in the workspace is a non-starter, so they just lose the possibility to make a living without humiliation. When one looks up blackpill content on the distribution of attractiveness and growing proportion of sexless men, and non-infrequent incel-type assessments like this one on Quora –
– it's hard not to come away with the feeling «holy shit, tens of millions of guys are forced into a lifetime of being severely bullied». It's the kind of thing non-targets aren't prone to notice or connect to external factors (did you care that they were suicidal losers in your school?) so it may be arbitrarily intense. Even if it's an exaggeration based on insecurity and not an accurate stereotype, the very fact that there exists strong social pressure to dismiss it as a delusion is telling. There's no «lived experience» clause for ugly men.
And contrariwise, it may be the case that the incessant wringing of hands about sexism and harassment, and demand for National Incel Strategy, generalized tyranny, censorship, surveillance etc are products of many women being unable to remove uggos from their life, developing chronic stress and fear, and growing desperately violent as a result (in their own passive-aggressive socially manipulative manner).
We may underestimate how much gendered animosity the society contains at the margins; and the consensus about its direction is very likely wrong.
I mean, these guys are essentially clueless spergs. The Human Resources meme depicts a guy doing something that is, at best, crossing the line a bit. Hot guy gets away with it, fat ugly guy is busted. Fat ugly guy should have known long before he got to the workplace that he can't do the shit that Adonis gets away with. We see it in lots of aspects of life...the rich guy gets off because he can afford a great lawyer, the poor guy gets railroaded.
It would probably be a lot easier and simpler if we just were more explicit about expecting unattractive people to be celibate for life and take some kind of prosocial job that didn't mesh well with family life, like truck driving or travel nursing.
The vast majority of "unattractive people" aren't celibate. Look out in the US. Yes, maybe a very specific brand of unattractive person who works in a specific industry and who works in a specific area of the country might be out of luck, but there's lots of ugly people of both genders getting laid. Usually by each other.
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I've argued before that the cross-gender animosity is not only at the margins but is borderline mainstream (Most young guys I know follow and like Andrew Tate, social media comment sections are much more adversarial than they used to be, from both sides ). Which to me seems like a rather recent development.
Of course there's no way to quantify this, but you can tell which way the cultural/psychological wind is blowing if your eyes and ears are open enough.
Unfortunately, significant amounts of ink were spilled on the post defending myself of accusations of being an incel or whatever against discussing the central thrust of the post which I meant to be the worsening relations gaining enough mass to be noticeable in mainstream forums.
I'd love to hear what you have to say about this topic. Maybe consider an effort post?
I think the thing about Tate and co, is that they represent what essentially is an aspirational culture these days. Represent isn't exactly the correct word, but I'm not sure how else to put it. But I think they're reflecting a view based on a certain "Social Media Yuppie" perspective that's coming out of a few large cities, frankly, London is the biggest example here I think. Where they're wrong of course, is that the SM Yuppie mentality, isn't as common outside of these places as these people think. But that doesn't mean that it's not influential either. I do think there's reasons why people see this as pretty much the peak of attainable status right now.
And I think people do see traits of SM Yuppie culture "bleed out", and I think there's a reaction to it.
I've always argued that the manosphere as a whole (and it's a bunch of different parts and I acknowledge that) should be more focused on teaching people to avoid red flags. And I understand avoiding these red flags are tough, because again, these are relatively high-status baddies we're talking about here. But still...you don't want to deal with the narcissistic traits here. Just say no. It's not worth the headache. But educating men about potential red flags has always been seen as misogynistic by people who well...promote and sell those flags, giving them out to women to be honest.
And then there's the concern that this SM Yuppie culture will be picked up on by your partner in an existing relationship. What do you do then?
Anyway, I think largely that's what this is all about. I think you can avoid it if you want to, especially if you recognize status pressures and try your best to avoid them. But that doesn't necessarily make it easy or without cost.
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Yeah, that's kind of a keen observation, and a really bitter pill to swallow. The exact mechanism here is that they are offended that (they think) a low-status male believes he has a chance with them. In their mind, that means he thinks they are low status too. That's where the insult comes from. In reality the man probably has not thought about it all that deeply, or indeed at all. This is high-neurotic behaviour.
But a great many first world women are utterly incapable of not typical-minding, or of empathising with anyone who is very different from themselves. Many women go through life without ever considering the male experience, or even realising that there is one that is separate to the female experience. They simply never need to -- thanks to rampant feminism, society is built and centered almost entirely around the female perspective. (Men are inculcated with the extreme importance of considering the feelings of girls and women almost from the cradle -- women are never told any such thing about men.) So they assume that this interaction must have been thought about as deeply as they consider their own interactions, with all the high-school politics and status gaming that entails.
Because the men in this example don't think about it that deeply, they go away confused and hurt by the reaction. Naturally, they wonder why. They band together with others also wondering why. And those groups slowly, piece by piece, reverse engineer the social mechanics that caused the situation. And this realisation is often terrible for them, because it reveals that there is no escape and it will never get better for them unless they can increase their status. All the fairy tales about true love overcoming all -- the princess and the frog -- that they held onto, were just stories. The real world doesn't work that way. These groups, by the way, are vilified for piecing this together, because the most important thing about the rules is you're not supposed to state them explicitly. Everyone playing is well aware of how utterly vile and two-faced this game is, and dragging that out into the light makes them look bad. Which lowers their status, so it is not acceptable. And so any attempts to lay this all out plainly and explicitly must be railed against.
And because society is, once again, built and centered around female feelings first and foremost, there is no justice to be had. They're branded as toxic and disgusting and entitled for expecting to be able to partake in the same core parts of the human experience as everyone else. "Don't they know their place?!" is the undertone carried throughout all this. Other men go along with this characterisation to win points from the women, because men are taught to please women at all costs from a very young age. There is no brotherhood or solidarity -- why would there be? They're all competing for favour. Men are taught outgroup bias their whole lives.
So while women with ugly friends will stick by them in solidarity and try and inflict them on unsuspecting men on blind dates or whatever (because being the queen bee, the best looking one in your circle of friends raises your status), men are pressured into ditching their ugly friends by women who don't want to be around those types of guys because it lowers her implied social standing to be seen with them. They apply this pressure through accusations of creepiness or malfeasance, as others have noted, typically centered on actions they would tolerate or welcome from higher status men (because attracting high status men means you are high status).
It's social climbing all the way fucking down.
Yes, and there's a broader generalization in that other men may be uncomfortable or find it gross that this man even has a sexuality in the first place; for unattractive people, the only really socially safe thing to do is to work hard at repressing your sexuality and making people believe that you want nothing more than to dedicate your life to something noble and that you are not in a relationship because you are too busy doing that. This is a fig leaf and a polite fiction, but most people will buy that.
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Feminists may overplay "male gaze" theory and the claim that everything is centered around the male perspective, but I think they are not wrong that many women are, in fact, raised exactly the opposite of what you claim, to learn how to cater to men and male preferences. Neither men nor women are a monolith; your description may accurately describe young urban white women raised in a deep blue bubble on a steady diet of anti-male grievance, but it's not the experience of all women in the first world, let alone the entire world. You did qualify this screed with "many" women, but when you then project it onto a claim about society being built and centered around female feelings and "no justice to be had" for men, you're just mirroring the feminists who blame all their negative feelings on men.
As another aspect, men typically have to make multiple approaches for a single success. If only 20% of women have the extreme negative reaction described, that amounts to a significant number of experiences that, to men on the sensitive side of things, are traumatic. Those experiences will play an outsized role in the mental universe of those men and make them overstate how ubiquitous they are.
Awkward approaches are bad and should be reduced as much as possible for the benefit of everyone involved, but they're also correctable and learning is possible with only a slight negative reinforcement. Rhetorically claiming they're rape-adjacent, on the other hand, drives men to extreme positions. Heterosexual men have the obligation to learn to read the room, while heterosexual women have the obligation to respond commensurate with the offense to allow that learning to happen. The issue is that, although the large majority of people of both genders follow this, defectors on both sides make it an unsustainable system.
I agree with all this. Most people learn pretty early that men approach, women get approached. Men take the risk of rejection and humiliation, because the risk for women is an entirely different calculation. You could say all the risk for men comes before they get a "yes," and all the risk for women comes after it.
There's nothing pernicious or oppressive about acknowledging that men are less choosy (for both social and biological reasons) and therefore any woman who wants to get laid probably can, much more easily than a man, but that comes with definite drawbacks on the female side of the equation.
The problem every time these threads get spawned is that the aggrieved men complain only about the disadvantage they perceive (namely, that they can't get laid as easily as they'd like while the women they desire get to pick and choose and aren't punished for it), and won't acknowledge the real risks (not just "feeling bad" or "offended that an ugly guy approached me") that women have to contend with. A lot of them will react to "heterosexual men have the obligation to learn to read the room" the way feminists react to "women should learn to have situational awareness and exercise good judgment in choosing partners" - both get really pissed off at being "victim blamed" for being told that some negative consequences are actually avoidable.
I'm not a fan of the Rebecca Watsons of the world making a big cause out of being approached in an uncomfortable way, or the "defectors" you refer to turning every approach into sexual harassment. But yeah, Elevator Guy should have "read the room" - it is pretty creepy to ask a woman you're alone in an elevator with late at night to "come back to your room for coffee" unless you have been given prior signals that she might be receptive to such a proposition.
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I don't think this is bad advice for both sexes.
Again, unironically, this is not bad advice. I know it seems like women are just being paranoid, but there are too many stories about women getting attacked or murdered. When I was younger, I did the stupid thing of "I'm just being paranoid, this guy is harmless" and I was wrong.
Why on earth is it put as "if you can't flirt at work, you are condemned to making a living with humiliation"? If you can't flirt, this is humiliating? Would you consider flirting in a single-sex environment, or are there no ways of being humiliated at work if you're all guys together?
I don't think most women regard ugly men with "looks of disgust" even if the ugly men are not trying to hit on them, so that seems to be proving too much. Work is for work, so be professional and courteous and keep flirting for after-hours. And that's whether you're handsome or not. I think it's not ugly men, I think it's weird people - and women make remarks about other women who are weird or odd as well, I've heard them (hell, they've probably made the same remarks behind my back because I'm weird/odd and socially awkward).
Do your job, keep your head down, and try and find love elsewhere.
First of all, this stuff happens everywhere, not just work. Second of all, this is extremely humiliating to men but I guess we'll never be able to make you empathize with us, so I don't know what to say.
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I mean, you're not wrong that a lot of the things redefined as sexual harassment are just ugly guys doing things that would be well-within-the-pale if their more attractive peers did them. I've got personal stories of being saved from accusations of sexual harassment by virtue of being conventionally attractive, and besides, when has anything ever been as good a deal for unattractive people as it has for attractive ones?
That being said, I still think this specific expression of it is due to feminism. Women in very conservative communities in the west largely don't label unwanted attention as sexual harassment, they just say no, and consider having to occasionally say no a part of life.
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I think people really miss how dehumanizing that is, the idea that you can't do something that other people around you can do. And I'm not even saying it's necessarily wrong that we are that way. But it is going to impact people, no doubt about it.
I mean...women and minorities get The Talk - yep, the one - as teenagers. Why not ugly men, from older guys that they trust? Fathers, uncles, older male friends. Nothing wrong with that.
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Maybe this is a result of working in a heavily gender-imbalanced field but I have never once seen a romantic relationship between coworkers. An asexual workplace would be great. In fact I would guess this is the norm actually. I doubt many kindergarden teachers or oil field workers even have many people of the right sex to pick from.
I've worked at a large tech company, with SWEs being roughly 80:20. Every woman on my team and partner teams ended up dating a coworker. One of them, a 24 year old new grad, ended up dating her 30-something TL. They got married last year.
I'm sure they would be frowned upon by the powers that be, but all of them were happy relationships, and the world would be worse off if those weren't allowed to happen.
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Amen, brother. Workplace romances are cancer, though it doesn’t surprise me they would be so common in “tech.” The people who flock to that industry aren’t exactly known for their adaptability to adult social spaces, and the workplace gives them a captive audience with at least a shared interest in profession. It’s “easy mode” for nerds, to an extent.
I also innately detest the kinds of people who try to shit where they eat. It’s an annoyance for those of us just trying to do a job when Boy and Girl are going through a rough patch and can’t work together properly (though they love to insist they can keep it professional, that’s always a lie).
Is tech special? If anything I've seen much more workplace cheating and stuff outside of tech in the business world.
Romantic relationships happen in any human social setting, assuming it's because tech people are weird is unfounded.
Tech isn’t “special,” just contemptible. I observed it all too much in high school and college: the desperate, one-sided infatuation of a large group of nerdy, undersexed men toward their handful of female peers. I have no reason to believe this becomes less contemptible as these young nerds became old, working nerds, though the inflated salaries likely does a number to their egos and baseline confidence.
As I said, these men are typically very bad at cold socializing outside of work, so they become desperate and obnoxious to those around them who are just trying to do a job, since their priority is finding a willing fuck monkey while they’re young.
If this isn't pure trolling, it's an impressively antagonistic simulacrum. Don't post like this, please.
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I worked in gender imbalanced tech industry when I met my wife. Ratio was probably 70:30 :: Male:Female.
My wife was also far more aware of relationships between coworkers than I was. I thought it was uncommon, but with her connection to the social grapevine at work she told me of dozens of couples.
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Yeah, no. Workplace relationships are completely normal, and insisting on their impropriety feels absolutely inhumane to me. I'd call it a strictly American obsession, but of course neuroses seem to be one of USA's top exports, so I'm seeing it creep into where I live as well. Well, I'm married so I don't care, have fun on the dating apps, kids.
Americans act like sex is illegal under Federal law.
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