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Regarding looksmaxxing and body modifications, I would like to present a case of someone who does not indentify as a looksmaxxer, but nevertheless has made a career out of making sweeping, permanent modifications to his looks. Specifically, I would like to talk about f1nn5ter, a Youtuber and Twitch streamer who started out making Minecraft videos, but quickly transitioned (figuratively at first) into just-chatting light fetish content, eventually culminating in a femboy focused only fans account.
You see, f1nn5ter, was incredibly good at passing as a woman. He could do his makeup, put on fake breasts, and do his hair. Once he was done, especially in the right lighting, you would be hard pressed to tell the he was actually a man until you heard his voice. He quickly gained a following that absolutely loved this. A solid mixture of LGBT, trans-folk, people not quite sure if they were trans or not, and several who gained some amount of sexual pleasure from seeing him dress up as a woman and act all bratty and submissive on stream. It turned out that some of his fans were willing to pay a lot of money to keep him that way, and so the crossdressing became an increasingly permanent feature of the stream. Over time, the streamer became increasingly involved with trans advocacy, gained a trans girl(?)friend, started microdosing estrogen, and eventually fully transitioned (literally this time) to genderfluid(?), meaning that his/her/their pronouns are subject to change constantly.
Recently, F1nn took a step up by undergoing face feminization surgery. Essentially shaving off some of his bones in the face in order to appear more feminine. As a reminder, he already passed quite well. Here is a tweet he made 3 years ago (without the fake breasts), before officially starting hormones and transitioning.
The culture war angle is two-fold: First, it seems weird that people go so hard on clavicular when stuff like this is accepted (at least by the online left). Prior to transitioning, the guy experimented with estrogen with no guidance from a doctor just to try and look more androgynous. Now, he underwent surgery, risking complications and a long recovery period just to appear slightly more female. But this is apparently okay because trans. I am split on this. On the one hand, I think this promotes a dangerous lifestyle. A slippery slope of increasingly significant medical procedures just to make yourself look slightly closer to your ideal. Never accepting yourself as you are, always chasing perfection. He apparently considered straight up getting bones removed, although the surgeon talked him out of it for the time being. On the other hand, I think the transhumanist angle here is quite cool and that surgeries like this are a good thing if they dramatically improve your life.
My second issue is with the pronouns. Reading the subreddit, people don't just use his pronouns interchangeably. They use them interchangeably within the same sentences. "She uses he/him pronouns!" is an actual serious quote from there. While I find it impressive from a writing perspective (and interesting as a kind of performance art) that you can still sort of follow along if you know what they are doing, I think this is kind of insane. Like, a frequent talking point from trans activists is that the pronoun thing is easy. But once you start throwing nonbinaries, questioners, and genderfluids into the mix this stops being the case. Having three or more sets of pronouns that you swap between at your leisure and just expect others to adhere to strikes me as sadistic. A kind of dominance play in which you take pleasure in observing others put all their effort into following your rules.
Of course, F1nn is not a good trans representative, being a pornstar and all, but I do think he represents a good part of why the online trans communities seem so weird. This kind of rhetoric and advocacy is not exactly uncommon on the internet, and it is hard to look at it and not see some kind of social contagion or slippery slope when all people do is encourage it.
I think this is less about "looksmaxxing" and more f1nn5ter just gradually realizing that 1) she is trans (and apparently autistic based on some youtube vid titles), 2) wants to be the Gen Z soft porn equivalent of someone like Natalie Mars and 3) has the means and genetics to actually achieve that. Ie. she wants to be a trans
pornstaronlyfans ”influencer” who actually passes and looks pretty at the first glance instead of immediately triggering "this is weird, ugly and creeps me the fuck out"-reflex in people.This does have an interesting intersection with the pronoun discussion: What would the anti-trans people call someone who looks like a woman, in the future presumably sounds like a woman, acts like an autistic woman but has a penis? I’m on neither side but my immediate instinct is to go with ”she”, at least if I don’t hear her voice, because my brain first sees a cute girl-next-door before conscious thought comes into the picture.
Related is the "What is a woman?" question. Normally used to dunk on leftists, it can be used in a ship-of-Theseus sense. When have you undergone enough hormonal replacement, voice training, and surgeries to be more female than male?
I know the most hardcore anti-transers will say the only thing that matters is your birth sex. But as you said, the heuristic for most people is just "Does she appear female?" Which lends some credence to the Judith Butler theory that gender is primarily a performance and thus "Am I a man or a woman" is determined by the actor and the audience.
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I mean as a transhumanist but also as a liberalist, tbh I'm all for this. People can do anything they want with their pronouns inside the bubble that they created, maintain and advertise. There is a case to be made for the corrosive influence of media fame, but I don't see the pronoun thing here. If you follow f1, I can only assume you know what they're about. At any rate, nobody forces you to be there, it's not a public space, and no benefit is even accrued from your presence so that you may be pushed into obligation.
I'd slightly rephrase the saying: As it harm none against their intent, without their knowledge, or out of coercion, do what you will. Intentionally and knowingly allowing yourself to be harmed should not bar others from action, and I assume this clarification was only left out of the law because the thought of people harming themselves intentionally as a moral argument was considered too absurd.
I think the main risk is in advertising the lifestyle to others through success and streams. There seems to be a subculture where the ideal body is one you can only achieve through chemical modification, often without the aid of a doctor. Specifically people who don't qualify for gender dysphoria taking estrogen in order to appear more androgynous and attain the ideal femboy physique for longer. It bothers me that this kind of thing seems widely accepted within these spaces, and is not challenged by leftists outside them.
To be honest, if I had a body a bit (a lot) more suited to this, I might be into it myself, lol. It's incredibly unclear to me to what extent this is an existing impulse being revealed by new affordances or something being carved by a hyperstimulating media landscape. It's also possible to me that the vast majority of human culture is already something that was carved by the vast forces of yesteryear. So I don't know. But at the end of the day, I'm libertarian enough that I'll come down on the side of "state funded trans healthcare should be rare and gated and proven by unbiased studies or not available at all; and estrogen, puberty blockers and appearance surgeries should be regulated, reviewed, generic, and over the counter." Every generation has something they are silly about to the point of harm. It's still not gonna be as bad as cigarettes or opiates.
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The online left's problem with Clavicular is that he's part of the manosphere. That is the bottom line and his surgeries are ancillary to it, at most. It's just terrible optics for progressive gender values when a neurotic out-and-out misogynist influencer faces little trouble picking up young attractive women in Miami. Acknowledging this would vindicate incels, in their mind.
It is disturbing and it comes with the territory. Social reinforcement, financial incentive and ideological capture create a feedback loop where "just a little more feminisation" becomes the rational next step. Add in a heavy dose of victim complex, and toxic acceptance of the most extreme variety of "self-expression" becomes necessary to prove the concept. ""Look man, no offense, but that sounds unhinged" sounds awfully close to what the transphobes tell me all the time. How can I repeat that line while being trans myself?"
Was the progressive claim really that misogynists find it impossible to get laid? Birth rates in socially conservative countries and communities clearly prove that to be incorrect regardless of what ‘Clavicular’ is doing.
To me it seems like the idea that, say, the existence of a happy nuclear family with two dads raising well adjusted and successful children ‘disproves’ social conservatism with regards to family formation.
We can go even broader. There are people who get away with socially deleterious behavior all the time. Think of the famous shopping cart greentext. At some point the argument is implicitly ‘do [x prosocial behavior] even if some other people get away with not doing it’, whatever the behavior is and whether or not you agree with the specifics of the argument.
IMO the polarised nature of the discourse guarantees an endless enfilade of bad takes deployed as gotchas. Gen Z seems to have way more social outcasts than their parents' generation, and almost no one knows how to discuss the phenomenon without ruffling feathers.
"This is why no one likes you!"
"Well what about Brad? Everyone likes him!"
A lot of TRP is just crude locker room talk. Some interesting pattern recognition mixed with some bullshit. You still have to observe the world for yourself and decide which parts actually align with reality. Realistically, an average man can meet the standards of his looksmatch, but he usually has to put in the legwork in the initial stages. Failing repeatedly at that breeds bitterness, which then turns into a self-fulfilling prophecy and repels potential partners. A character flaw? Maybe. At the same time, there is an undercurrent of progressive platitudes that insists that in a western style dating environment, women would claw off their fingers before dating a Trump voting man. Both things can be true. Unlikeable vibes make dating much harder, and plenty of women still date objectively shitty men.
The discourse rarely manages to hold both observations in its head at once.
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I'm old enough to remember when the stock piece of advice feminists offered to sexually frustrated straight men was "be more feminist" and "of course women like nice guys – that's why you can't get laid, because you're not one" and so on. "The reason Nice Guys™ can't get laid is because they don't Respecc Wahmen enough" was a core tenet of what Scott calls geek feminism, and still lives on in how progressives use the term "incel" as a term of abuse towards any man whose opinions are deemed insufficiently socially progressive. See this comment by a poster who expressly believes that any woman who dates a conservative man must be mentally ill and filled with unconscious self-loathing:
I devoted several comments to attempting to rebut this reasoning as facile.
In fairness, feminists might legitimately rebut that misogynists can only get laid in socially conservative countries where women are afforded very little freedom in their choice of sexual partners, and that in a free society no woman of sound mind would voluntarily choose to go to bed with a misogynist. They tend to get very defensive when you provide them with some examples of men with backwards attitudes to women who nevertheless have no trouble attracting them.
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I've seen several compilation videos of him trying to pick up girls in assorted locales and striking out. Maybe it's a numbers game, but "little trouble" seems to be exactly what he's facing i.e. he's not effortlessly hoovering up pussy without a care.
I mean he doesn't succeed "all" the time and disgruntled people want to signal boost when he fails, but you can find lots of footage of him succeeding with no effort or when he shouldn't.
Notably, people online tend to claim that he has paid the people who it does work on.
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I'm actually not sure this is about trans or gender at all.
Finnster reminds me of nobody so much as Nikocado Avocado - somebody who put a huge amount of himself online, obtained a large and enthusiastic following, and became addicted to the likes. This then leads to the person sharing himself more and more, modifying and selling his body in order to gain more and more attention, no matter how permanent, unhealthy, or damaging.
It's tragic, and I feel awful for the people doing this to themselves, but ultimately I have more condemnation for the social media system they exist within, and even for the slavering audience.
Nikocado Avocado was my first thought as well. It needs to be studied how someone who began with a seemingly normal personality and approachable demeanor could descend into such a grotesque, self destructive public spectacle for... clicks? The psychological arc is fascinating and deeply disturbing.
The closest example from the pre-social media times I can think of were probably carnival sideshow performers or certain extreme vaudeville acts, people who willingly turned their bodies and personal degradation into public entertainment for money and attention. But these people were usually born with a condition that led to their unfortunate appearance, and they had no better means of putting food on the table. I can't imagine someone having access to better choices and still choosing to go down this road.
Fortunately, Nikocado secretly lost weight years ago and got back his former weight.
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There's a social media element to it for sure, but there definitely is a trans element to it as well. I distinctly remember Philosophy Tube getting a visible bump in patreon subscriptions, and I think I recall someone going through other examples of suddenly trans influencers.
PhilosophyTube is the best example of a modern Patrick Bateman and it's not even close. It would be the perfect act in a modern rendition of American Psycho to weave in the alleged reason for his transition.
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Do we really need like 3 top-level trans posts a week? And keep in mind this is coming from a horrible anti-trans bigot like me; I can only imagine how tiring this is for the other side. A biography of one random streamer doesn't seem postworthy. (When Asmongold or Hasan Piker goes trans, then you can @ me.)
So I'll admit I may have been too hasty in posting this, but I disagree that this guy is just a random streamer. For several years, he pulled in enough viewers to do collabs with various large streamers such as Mizkif and Belle delphine, his fan subreddit has almost 100k subscribers, and his posts are still on top of /r/egg_irl and /r/crossdressing, two very prominent trans related subs. He is one of the the biggest trans-focused content creators out there, and might be the most prominent trans-centric streamer that currently exists. Thus I find it reasonable to conclude that his is behavior somewhat representative of and condoned by online trans spaces which makes him relevant to the culture war.
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IIRC, F1nn5ter used to be sufficiently prominent to make the front page of Reddit on a semi-regular basis, just like Asmongold and Hasan. That's where I learned about this rigmarole.
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Part of the explanation is this: Clavicular explicitly says that he does looksmaxxing to gain social and sexual status. Trans advocates, on the other hand, usually say that trans people transition to feel more comfortable with themselves, because they have intense dysphoria, etc.
Putting aside the question of whether the trans advocates' claim is accurate or not, cause that's a different topic... still, part of what is happening here is just that people tend to respond more positively to the "I am doing this because I am suffering psychologically" presentation than to the "I am doing this to for sex and money" presentation.
Of course, the reality is that Clavicular's story is that he too, as he freely admits, was suffering psychologically when he was younger. Suffering psychologically from being a nobody, from not getting girls. Not only that, but he is still suffering psychologically, as he freely admits, because his underlying personality is still that of a socially anxious introvert. He uses psychotropic drugs and the motivation of getting money to get himself to constantly go out and make influencer content.
But male desires for sex, money, and social status are widely seen as being somehow inherently wrong and disgusting. Not just on the left, but even by many people on the right. People tend to associate these pretty natural and understandable desires with the worst examples of what happens when psychologically disturbed people pursue them: rapists, social climbing sociopaths, sleazy business sharks, and so on.
A man wanting to become a woman, on the other hand, does not activate these associations. Becoming a woman might conceivably get a particularly sexually unsuccessful man more sex than he would have had otherwise, but becoming a woman is popularly conceived (whether accurately or not) as something that would make the sex that the person gives to others less dominant and aggressive. Becoming a woman is also not popularly thought of as something that would give the man more social status. Yes, there are cases of trans activists using trans issues as a way to status climb, but it is popularly understood that men on average have more social status than women and that most of the world's most powerful people are men. In reality, the average young woman probably has more social status than the average young man, but that might be a point that is too subtle for the average observer to grasp.
Another point is that: Yes, Clavicular in a sense is doing gender-affirming medical treatments just like some trans people do gender-affirming medical treatments. But he is going beyond gender-affirming treatments and doing gender-maxxing. So the trans equivalent to Clav isn't just a man who does some relatively light gender-affirming treatments to reduce the presentation of masculinity. It's a man who tries to turn himself into a female bimbo stereotype, with fake lashes, large fake breasts, and so on.
Personally, I find nothing wrong with that, whether it's the trans person doing it or Clavicular doing it. But I think that many people are weirded out by the monomaniacal maximalism and "trying to turn yourself into a superficial stereotype" aspects of it, similar as to how many people are weirded out by extreme bodybuilders.
Interesting. I always thought people like Clavicular are bad because they teach their (often young and impressionable) viewers to lead a lifestyle that is fundamentally unhealthy whilst avoiding things that would actually be good for them. But you are stating that the reason why most people think he is bad is because he is being public about his desires for women, money, and status.
That's another big reason why people think he is bad. I just didn't mention it.
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This is because the normies know about clavicular. Up until your post, I had been blissfully ignorant of this guy. I think they're both stupid, for the record.
Fair enough. He became quite big during covid, consistently pulling video views in the hundreds of thousands for years with what was really just clips from his stream. While his popularity has seemingly faded over the last three years or so, I would think this would be enough to justify some degree of mainstream appeal to him. At least amongst those on the internet.
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Easy to understand - F1nn let his face be remodeled by professionals, the best and the brightest experts, while Clavicular performs the looksmaxing care on himself with hammer in his own hands.
The same reason why suicide is discouraged, why stopping suicide and saving human life is one of main pretexts of rising internet censorship and gun control, while simultaneously Canadian care is spreading around the world.
Your face, your skull and your life do not belong to you, they belong to the experts. Trust the science, trust the experts, only they can decide, not dumb muggle like you.
Equivalent to Clavicular style looksmaxing in woke world is DIY gender affirming care, ranging from injecting yourself with various bathtub made substances to fully self performed gender affirming surgery.
But this is problematic.
Trans people have been going underground to access care for generations. But that doesn’t mean DIY networks are a large-scale strategic answer to transphobia.
This is not something praised and encouraged by mainstream left online and offline, this is domain of real hardcore underground very very far from public acceptance.
edit: links linked
Yeah, many people might not realize that Clav did the DIY stuff because of limited medical options and the fact that he used to have no money, not because he has anything against the idea of going to professionals.
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If you go on trans related subreddits, endorsements of DIY transitioning in the form of purchasing and administering hormones on your own are not that hard to find. The justification being that anything is better than nothing, and access to care where the poster lives is too limited. DIY surgery is definitely a level beyond that though.
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