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CSpitz  8mo ago (text post)   2930 thread views

Married guys of The Motte, where are your wives hanging out and can I join in?

I’m looking to find out where I can meet other women/moms who value rationalist-style discourse, but are more interested in kids, family, community, and home than in Motte discussions these days.

I’m a long time Motte lurker with a deep respect for the tenets of this forum. I crave more of this type of discourse. The issue is, I’m a stay-at-home mom now and I’m choosing to spend my time elsewhere (kids, community-building, garden, etc). Most of my exposure to this community is now through my husband (who forwards me the quality contributions he thinks I’d like), and honestly I’m generally more interested in topics that relate closer to my daily life these days anyway. (e.g. I'm very interested in Culture War stuff, but with more of a focus on "how the heck do I raise my kids in the middle of this Culture War?")

I’m wondering whether I can somehow connect with other moms (maybe wives of Motte members?) who are similarly lurking but who’d enjoy Motte-style discourse a lot more than the kinds of discourse I’ve been finding on more-mainstream kinds of online mommy groups (ugh).

TL;DR Seeking moms who love the rationalist ethos, but are busy doing mom stuff.

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I took my wife to a rationalist meetup and she made me promise not to do that to her again

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My wife thinks this forum is an "incredibly boring illustration of the fact that you first-worlders don't have any real problems".

She's not wrong.

It's always been the case that most of the people doing real philosophy are relatively privileged people. Practically speaking, I don't see how it could be any other way. That doesn't mean that the philosophy doesn't need doing. We would hope that the most well-intentioned people with the best ideas have the most success in propagating them, privilege notwithstanding.

The very real-world philosophy of ethics, politics, science, and tech that gets discussed here matters to the long-term well-being of humanity, and I don't have a lot of patience for dismissing those discussions as preoccupation with "boring first-world problems".

To be clear, I don't have any problem with someone interested in rationalist takes on more "down-to-earth" topics. That's fine. But just don't denigrate the more abstract "boring" stuff.

Much truth in that, unfortunately, due to how the world works, the first-worlder manufactured problems tend to become real problems in the other worlds...

Oof, can she not?

Men are more online than women. Given the relatively small size of this community, and the strange circumstances which created it, I think that might be enough on its own to explain the absence of similar but more female-skewed communities.

We're not parents yet (getting started in a month though!) but otherwise my wife is pretty much exactly who you're looking for. Your vision of a [parenting forum with Motte-style discourse] would be absolutely perfect for her, and even so I'm not sure she'd spend any time there. She likes listening to podcasts a lot more than reading even her favorite essays/forums.

I'd suggest finding (or becoming) an influencer with those values, finding/organizing a community around that, and then going from there. That would be the best way to get my wife (and thus similar people) involved.

Best of luck, and please let me know if you find anything, so I can refer my wife there.

That sounds like an excellent idea! I’m very much in the mood to start something. I also don’t have the time (or inclination to make time) for much essay-reading these days. I’m thinking I try starting a small Discord chat and see what that turns into. That sounds much more my speed. I’ll pm you when I’ve figured out how to actually do that…

Best of luck starting your family!!

I’m a married mom who mostly lurks here. I wouldn’t mind seeing more discussion where females aren’t regarded as a different species to men.

I don’t know how much I can help with that. I feel like I’m trying to capitalize on the differences between genders to make a more satisfying social group for myself. :p

I'm a married mom who hangs out here, and I've lately been enjoying Megan Daum's Unspeakeasy forum. It's expensive, but often feels like The Motte for Her. Of course, the posts aren't quite so long because we have shit to do :D

Neat, thanks for the tip! Less lengthy posts sounds more my speed. :p What in particular do you think you like about it?

It's not anonymous, which means everybody treats each other as human and there's more of a sense of a community. I'd say the overarching mood is anti-woke, but there's no lockstep thinking and any disagreement is done with respect. Also, while there is a good amount of culture war discussion, any topic is welcome and gets decent engagement.

Not sure where you live, but there are also in-person meetups (along with the official Unspeakeasy retreats).

Oh wow, that does sound like a really cool convergence of traits. Not being anonymous never even occurred to me, but that must make a huge difference to the vibe! I’ll definitely have to check this place out. Thank you!

It's fascinating that something like that exists. I love the idea, it just seems crazy that people might pay $150 a year to join a forum without seeing what it's like first.

I'm guessing most new members are referrals from existing members?

I joined at launch (when it was $100) because I was familiar with Megan and really liked her work. The membership roster is definitely journalist-heavy, which implies a network effect.

I have no idea why I would discuss occasionally participating in a small obscure mostly-American political discussion forum with my wife.

I only met my husband because we both liked HPMOR. The rationalist vibes run deep in our house. I think we’re here for the style of discourse as much as the content. It feels like poetry sometimes, watching people formulate their thoughts and ideas, confining their expression to a conscientious, rationalist style. I find it beautiful and deeply refreshing.

Would a weekly thread that is about women be worthwhile @CSpitz?

It's a neat idea, but my gut reaction is that that would invite drama, and in attempting to fracture an existing good thing it would probably either devolve or fizzle out.

I'm going to try making a small discord chat and inviting some of the people who've replied here. That's probably more my speed. Personally, I just don't have time to keep up with the Motte right now, as much as I'd love to be more engaged.

I don't think a thread specifically for women would be a good idea. But I think it might be a good idea to have a thread focused on homesteading-related topics. A thread, maybe monthly to compensate for lower volume at first, focused on practical discussion and advice on stuff like preparing and preserving food, review and repairs of home appliances, childcare and education, building local tightly-knit communities, etc.

I'd love that. I think this forum is generally good at offering practical advice.

Ooh, now that sounds like an appealing niche. I’d be very curious to see how much crossover there is within the community, vs how many people would ask, “wtf, why?” (I’d also love to see the motte’s uber-nerds discuss homesteading. That sounds hilarious but ultimately very wholesome.)

I’d worry about this being an out-of-left-field imposition on the space. Is there any precedent for that kind of thing here, or would it need its own space?

I wish I knew a good word for this idea… It feels like there’s something many of us feel is missing. It has something to do with tighter-knit in-person communities, nature, working with our hands, etc… but forming communes feels like a weird, risky thing to do, and we don’t want to actually leave the miracles of the modern era. (I loved the essay, “Why Tradwives aren’t Trad Enough, by Mary Harrington”. She had some very neat thoughts on this topic.)

Well I'm not in charge here or anything, but I don't think the mods/admins would mind as long as such threads abided by the same rules as the rest of the board. I might follow along myself - I'm a urban dweller right now, about the opposite, but I do find myself interested in such lifestyles.

There does seem to me to be some meat to the idea that we're meant to thrive in more connected communities. That's probably a good topic for discussion in the main thread, or one of the alternates, or something. I do sometimes find the main thread a bit fast-paced for my tastes for actually participating.

This idea has me curious now. I’m going to roll this around in my head a bit and see what comes out. It feels like there might be something there, but I’ll have to put some thought into what the coherent starting elements might be…

Where does this nebula of largely disconnected ideas come together? Is it community building? Homesteading would seem to fly against that at face value (though I think there are good arguements to be made for its being very much in the spirit of community building). I feel like network states have a place in this umbrella too. And the “back to basics” elements are interesting, but might be down more to personal preference and interest than inherent features of this larger theme. That feels like an important aspect, but a messy place to not get bogged down in unnecessarily.

Now I feel like I’m talking out of my butt. Does anyone else have any insights to share?

Bad idea. Opens the door to white knighting and drama. Inevitably someone will "call out" a post that someone else made in the CW thread and it won't end well.

If two users want to connect with each other then they can just message each other directly.

On second thoughts, no need for a weekly thread.

Hey, I am a married mom, interested in domestic stuff and lurk on The Motte a lot! Pm me in case we're nearby, and I would be very interested in finding an online gathering space as well.

Ditto: I am a frequent lurker, SAHM, and would love a Motte-style space to discuss culture war / domesticity / daily life stuff. Online mom and women's spaces can be a bit of a mixed bag in terms of quality and civility. I wonder if we could start a weekly thread, either for women or for domesticity?

Pm me, and we can see if you're local. If so, my wife would meet up with you.

Also my wife says, maybe Emily Oster and her substack could be fruitful for you.

Do you have any other online communities you participate in with a more feminine bent?

I'm far from a married, or being a father.

But you are looking for an exceedingly small group of people. And by that I mean people who are

  1. Mothers
  2. Can/Will talk like mottizens
  3. Actually uses the Motte

You are probably in the thousands of people worldwide at filter (2) and probably less than 10 people at filter (3). There are literally dozens of you.

I suggest;

  • Seek out mothers who won't necessarily give you the full motte experience, some of it. You can probably find conservative mom groups.
  • Just talk to parents on the motte?

You are probably in the thousands of people worldwide at filter (2) and probably less than 10 people at filter (3). There are literally dozens of you.

Is that not sufficient? If there are 10 people on this site who meet the criteria, and all/most of them eventually see this post (either directly or by someone recommending it to them), then OP has gone from 0 to 10 friends to discuss these things with, which appears to be what they're looking for. Once your last filter is "people who I will actually encounter" you can tolerate tiny numbers making it through, conditional on them wanting a small group to talk with rather than trying to form a brand new splinter-motte that requires a few hundred people.

It seems like ‘conservative mom groups’ are probably easy- there’s likely one at 70% of churches in the country, for example- to find, but she might be looking for high-IQ and contrarian mothers, which is harder.

Lol. “High-IQ and contrarian mothers” might be the best description to-date of my ideal friend parameters.

Yeah that will be just about impossible.

Which is why I suggested.. she just talks to us non mother mottizens. I dont think there is any massively insightful informarion that a motte mom might have more than the generic motte parent. The motte parent will be much closer to what she is looking for than a conservative mom even.

I, for one, am interested in more threads about parenthood, physical hobbies (I've been enjoying some on woodworking), education that's more about actually teaching children, less complaining about bad things happening in education, etc. For a while there were some posts, I think in the wake of Scott posting on "Raise a Genius" (https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/07/31/book-review-raise-a-genius/), about possibly trying out alternative education on one's own kids, but I haven't heard any updates about it lately. It would be interesting to hear back on how people's various attempts at child raising and education are going.

Data Secrets Lox seems to have more wives and mothers than here, so you might get more useful responses there (but keep in mind, they're spending time on DSL, suggesting that that's the online community of like minded people they've found, not somewhere else...)

I've been watching things like this lately https://youtube.com/@TheCottageFairy

I am also wondering about this question, with the impression that it may be underspecified.

What's missing (at least for me) isn't talking about children, animals, food, church, whatever. What's missing is actually doing those things together. I do not want to talk about preserving fruit -- I want to get together and preserve fruit. I think some of the other moms feel similarly, but none of us is good at organization, so the best we manage is going to the zoo or museum together every couple of months. I don't really want to talk about education, I would much rather form an educational co-op, the moms in my community are mostly better educated than the average school teacher, but again... organization. Other moms have mentioned kind of wishing that we all lived closer together, so that we could form some sort of loose commune sort of thing, but I don't think that's exactly it, either, so much as norms around not going to others houses casually or without a lot of warning and coordination. I lived in some other places on the edge of Europe where that was not the case.

The natural mode of socialization with women and small children should probably be something like handwork, like all the old stories with the mother spinning or baking or weaving or something, and talking at the same time. We should do this together, but I am also not an organizer, and we were all socialized into reading all day every day as kids. I'm starting to see some of the downsides of that culture. I listen to podcasts (with at least two people discussing something; I've been listening to Personality Hacker and selected Jordan Peterson interviews lately) while I do handwork, because it has some of that effect.

In my case, I'm mostly bringing this on myself by not going to church, because I find the specifics of my own church very stressful with small children. This is mostly because the church service does not include built in activity, except some parishes that have the boys help serve in the alter, so it's a really stressful back and forth, in and out of the service, scolding the children for speaking too much or too loudly, the children confused, frustrated, and bored.

Edit: If your kids are at least 10, and you live in the US, I'd recommend 4-H. Lots of down to earth families, and moderately structured, goal based activities; my mom and I both made a decent number of friends this way when I was a child and teen.

Wow, I love this comment!

I totally agree, I would rather preserve fruit with friends/community than talk about preserving fruit. Generally it feels like what’s missing isn’t talking, it’s doing (with friends/community).

I feel like one great takeaway we got from Covid was that socializing online is a vastly insufficient substitute to in-person. Still, I feel like having some kind of online MotteMoms group would be better than nothing. Plus, I’m hoping that if anyone does have reasonably good in-person community, they might be able to tell me how it’s done. Maybe we’re similar enough that your solutions might work for me too. (Also, I’m secretly hoping that if I make good enough online friends, they’ll come and visit!)

I’m impressed with the feedback from this post and thinking I’ll set up a small Discord channel when I have a minute to figure out how those work.

That’s a fantastic point about norms around not dropping casually by people’s houses. I’ve spent a ton of energy trying to encourage my local friends to do exactly that, but the norms of not imposing seem very deeply engrained.

I love the idea of women doing “handwork” and socializing. I’ve attended and organized a bunch of “knit night” groups over the years, and while I always feel like they should be incredible and soul-nourishing (and judging by the fact that many women seem to attend the same group every week for years, it must be particularly rewarding for some of them), for me they always seem to fall flat.

I feel like conversations at the knitting groups I’ve been in always seem to devolve into something flat and shallow. Maybe that’s a reflection on my ability to promote stimulating conversations, but I think it might also be something like: women in the ancestral environment had more in common and more actually productive things to talk about. (Even gossiping about who likes who, or about whatever social scandal of the day could have been really useful.) At my knit nights I felt like there was a huge potential for great wisdom to be shared, but not enough group cohesion for anything useful or insightful to come of it. Maybe just “liking knitting” isn’t enough to form a meaningful social group on.

Listening to podcasts/Jordan Peterson while handcrafting/knitting is a very relatable pastime. It had never occurred to me to compare that with the ancestral equivalent; that’s a very fun picture.

“[T]he children confused, frustrated, and bored.” That’s brutal. I so feel for you guys. I know I would find this very intimidating, but I wonder if there’s anyone you can talk to at your church about setting up some kinds of a family-oriented service or other considerations. I’d be shocked if you were the only one whose life would be made better by this.

My husband and I are toying with the idea of joining a synagogue in our area that has a “regular service”, and then a “family service”, back to back, deliberately catering to the different demographics (and noise levels).

I am now following The Cottage Fairy; thank you! I’m not sure if this is quite your thing, but you might find a similar joyful aesthetic here: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Z0cdVEGDuDg&ab_channel=%E6%9D%8E%E5%AD%90%E6%9F%92Liziqi There’s less explicit wisdom, but similar wholesome vibes.

That’s a fantastic point about norms around not dropping casually by people’s houses. I’ve spent a ton of energy trying to encourage my local friends to do exactly that, but the norms of not imposing seem very deeply engrained.

In my experience, it helps this sort of thing to have everybody living physically close by and to have some kind of well-maintained sign that says your current status is "I'm away / sleeping / want some quiet time, so don't bother me" versus "I'm here and open for anyone to drop by and chat". I'm thinking of living in college dorms, a bunch of smallish personal rooms on a common hallway, people would leave their doors propped open to say "visitors welcome" or closed to say "leave me alone right now".

Ooh, a sign is a neat idea. I might have to play with that. I’ll just have to remember to take it down when it’s not relevant.

Dorms are definitely conducive to that kind of drop-in culture. Major perk.

My wife has no interest in The Motte and considers it mental masturbation at best.

smart woman

Lol! That never would have occurred to me, but I can definitely see an argument to be made. I like the muscle building analogy better, personally.

It's not an incorrect take.

I smirked at the post title, imagining a male rationalist posting this, as some prelude to Bay Area degenerate rat hijinks.

Not married with a kid. Partner has more interest in reading /r/AITA than rationality. Best of luck.

Married with kids. My wife doesn't have any interest in this place. Occasionally I'll show her a post of mine. But she has about the same level of interest as she does hearing about me playing video games.

Best of luck in your search.

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