site banner
PaperclipPerfector  8mo ago (text post)   3779 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for August 27, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

3
Top Bottom Old Controversial Comments
Jump in the discussion.

No email address required.

Posted here for new eyeballs:

For the past few months, my pc has been consistently crashing under heavy load, in graphically demanding games like Escape from Tarkov, Warhammer 3 etc. In normal use and less intensive games like Rimworld, no issues.

After about 15-20 min of gameplay, I get a full crash to a black screen with the pc powered off, and it refuses to post for several minutes regardless of what I do, at which point it often restarts on its own. The American Megatrends screen doesn't usually show up unless I cycle power, at which point it doesn't tell me anything useful either. (I had a similar issue around 5 years ago, but that was almost certainly CPU thermals, since the American Megatrends screen called out CPU overheating, and I've changed CPUs since then and don't get the same error)

The crash seems to be so total and abrupt that I can't find any useful logs to figure out wtf is going on.

I've run CPU and GPU stress tests on OCCT and furmark, and they only seem to cause issues unreliably.

It seems thermally related, since the problem is less severe when the AC is running, but unfortunately the AC is currently on the fritz exacerbating the issue, but fixing the AC isnt really a definitive solution is it?

I noticed >85° C temps on my Ryzen 5600x, so I changed the thermal paste just a few days back, and while temps dropped by 5-10 degrees, the crashing hasn't abated.

GPU temps hover in the 50s-60s range in Tarkov, which seems quite reasonable. It's a 3070 for what that's worth.

The other potential culprit is my geriatric 600w power supply, over 10 years old at this point, but why would it be thermally related?

I'm not running any OCs, and I've maxxed out my fan curves to help, not that it's doing much. My case has two extra blowers, and I even took off the sides to help with airflow.

Anyone have any idea as to how I can figure out what exactly is wrong? I can't really afford to replace my GPU, but I could consider buying a new PSU if need be.

This issue didn't plague me when I first built this current setup with the same components, but it's been several months and I'm losing my mind :(

What I've tried:

  1. Switching GPUs with my brother's pc. Couldn't reproduce crashing.

  2. Dusting pc

  3. Repasting thermal paste

  4. Checking for any OC (none)

  5. Stress tests, which are unable to reliably cause crashes while games can.

I'd normally say power supply too, but there's a possibility there's a power-saving setting causing either your psu or mobo to be too slow ramping up supply to sudden demand during games, causing a crash. That would explain why it only happens in games rather than benchmarks. This has been a big problem with the new graphics cards, and I've even had it on my old system.
It's also by far the easiest thing to check, since you just need to google all the different power saving options and disable them.

But imo it's still likely to be your psu, which is good news because they're one of the cheapest and easiest things to buy and replace. And even if it was your mobo, you'd need to buy a new psu for a new rig anyway, so there's no waste in getting one now.

Sorry for the late reply. Ironically couldn't post earlier because I had my PC apart to add some M2 cards and scavenged fans.

No worries, a cursory check doesn't seem to show anything out of the ordinary, but I still suspect it's more likely to be the PSU myself given that the problem was sudden, and I have my power settings to high performance if anything.

I vote power supply. I had a similar issue in terms of crashing and refusing to start up until some time passed, though I didn't have to do as much troubleshooting to determine the source. I'm pretty sure power supplies have some sort of safety thing to shut off if they overheat, but apparently it's not perfect because during some of the crashing and overheating some of the components in my power supply melted which made it rattle even during normal use (and I think made it less efficient and even more prone to overheating), which made it come to my attention as the most likely candidate. When I replaced it all the problems went away. (Also I discovered a massive clog of hair and dust trapped inside the old power supply which I think is what caused it to start overheating in the first place. Oops. Clean the inside of your computers.

Looking at your symptoms and comparing them to mine, that seems like the most likely culprit.

Well at the very least it's the cheapest option to rule out, I'll take a crack at it, thanks!

The other potential culprit is my geriatric 600w power supply, over 10 years old at this point, but why would it be thermally related?

Power supplies are thermal creatures; even high-end modern power supplies will typically lose ~10% of power to heat, and some of that load will actually increase as devices are getting thermally stressed (in addition to obvious power demand increases when ). Usually it's something related to the main switching MOSFET(s) on the high-voltage side from an internal control perspective (and the caps from a practical one), but I strongly discourage trying to repair your own PSU so the matter is kinda academic.

I won't say it's certainly the issue, but it's a very inexpensive one that's a lot more probable than most people expect.

It is worth getting a bigger power supply for sure before doing anything else; every weird computer problem I have ever failed to troubleshoot was resolved by getting a new PSU.

You can get a 750w 80+ gold pus on amazon with free returns; give it a shot and see if you can reproduce the crashes.

+1. You could get a power meter to see if you're near 600w, or use a calculator, but it seems likely. You've clearly put work into having good airflow/thermals, so this is the main thing that's left.

It might be expectedly failing before 600w, too. IIRC that rating is the sum of what can be put out at each voltage, and it's possible to exceed the maximum draw at one voltage without exceeding the total max, and combining newer components with older PSUs makes that imbalance easier to trigger.

it's possible to exceed the maximum draw at one voltage without exceeding the total max

This is also manufacturer-dependent; higher-quality power supplies tend to be able to supply the vast majority or all of its rating on 12V alone, while junk PSUs tend to list "500W" but neglect to mention that it can only output 300W as 12V (so from a modern PC standpoint it's only a 300W PSU- the better CPUs can pull 180W 24/7 and even ancient GPUs need about 200W- so if you try that you're already tripping overcurrent... if it even has one, that is).

Basically nothing uses 3.3 or 5V any more (aside from non-NVMe storage), to the point the new ATX standard removes them entirely (instead relying on the mainboard to downconvert 12V input, something it already does for the CPU to turn an input of 12 volts at 15 amps into 1 volt at 180 amps).

I have the exact same problem with Baldur's Gate 3. Tried to modify the intensity of the fans, but to no avail. It pisses me off that I need to rebuild a computer from the ground because of temperature control. Never seen a problem like this in all my life.

Huh. What program did you try and use? Asus had handy utilities both in Windows and in the Bios that lets me adjust the fan curve, but surely there's something for your setup?

That has all the symptoms of CPU thermal shutdown.

Do you have a program that can measure CPU fan speed? I wonder if your CPU fan has developed a problem and it can't keep up with sustained loads.

It could be the power supply if something warming meant it drew more power, too. I can't think of a reason why this could be but EE classes were a long time ago and I wasn't that good at them.

I'm staring at the fan, and it's spinning just fine. I've tweaked the fan curves to have it go full tilt 24/7, and given it's lived this long, I doubt it's worn out.

I also repasted the cpu, improving temps by 5 degrees easy, but the crashing is persisting.

Further, I did have actual CPU overheating issues several years back, when I had a 1700, and then when it would reboot, the American Megatrends screen would clearly state that the failure was due to CPU overheating, which it doesn't in this case.

Always grateful I buy prebuilt from Dell for expensive gaming PCs. Every four years I go to the Alienware website, get whatever the moderately good spec is (-80/i7 tier rather than -90/i9 tier), and pay the extra $200 for four years of whatever the ultra-premium Dell Support tier is. I also call them and haggle on the phone and can usually get the price down to the cost of parts on popular PC-parts websites, actually last time it was even cheaper because all the parts store were price-gouging on the 3080. So all I'm paying extra for is the warranty.

Whenever there's an issue, they're at my place the same or next day with a truck full of parts (including even replacement motherboards), I let the guy into my office room, go do something else, an hour or two later it's fixed. No endless diagnosis, no scouring hardware forums, no mountain of Indian youtube videos, trawling error messages, trying to resit my RAM, fiddling with the BIOS, downloading furmark, downloading and running memory testing software etc. Most importantly, absolutely zero RMA-ing. GPU fails? He puts a new one in, done, no waiting a month or whatever. The one time the whole PC was apparently FUBAR I got a new one a few days later. Apparently you can even use it abroad so if you move or buy one of their laptops they'll come to your hotel or holiday home and fix it there too.

You may be an exception given your comments on what Indian doctors get paid, but certainly for the average Western PMC unless you enjoy tinkering or building your own PC I can't see a major reason not just to buy the Dell because the hours you spend fixing it (even if breaks down only very occasionally) aren't worth it financially. 100% piece of mind and I never have to think about the Bios ever again.

I think you’re doing the right thing. I poured more time than I wanted to into PC assembly, troubleshooting etc. Too paranoid to let others handle it though.

  1. Why is your PC breaking down that much? I built mine in 2019 and its broken down only once. It also took a transatlantic flight.

  2. You lose a lot of modularity with a prebuilt as restrictive as dells. The last time I checked they use all kinds of proprietary shit, if you build you can replace/upgrade much easier.

  3. No one but the most ardent of overclockers think about the bios even once aftee they navigate the boot drive with it once. You are making the process of building a PC sound like rocket science.

I've built a PC with my dad before, have bought a couple of prebuilts from other brands, my partner built a PC, and I have bought the Alienwares and they all seem to have 'significant' issues every 2-3 years or so. It just feels like a gaming PC thing, although I've had issues with Macs too. Random bluescreens, fans suddenly failing, GPUs artifacting/going faulty after a few months, a water cooler failed, a stick of ram was faulty, whatever.

You lose a lot of modularity with a prebuilt as restrictive as dells. The last time I checked they use all kinds of proprietary shit, if you build you can replace/upgrade much easier.

Sure, but the proprietary shit doesn't matter. At a time when 3080s were selling for 3x MSRP and an RMA took/takes 2 months for most manufacturers, I got a new card the next day after mine got bricked. That's a unique level of service.

But why are your things breaking so often??

I've built well over 20 PC's in the last few years for friends, families and small businesses. It is not nearly as common as its been for you.

PC gaming is the worst form of gaming, except for all the others.

I'm glad to hear you've got a good experience from a name brand, in the future I might not need to pinch pennies and just buy a good pre-built. I'm not overly enamoured by the PC building process, but I do have plenty of parts that might last me a while, so I'm not leaving yet.

In India at the least, I've never heard of any company providing such excellent customer service, but then again PC gaming is a rarety here since we've steadily been priced out of the market. My RTX 3070 was the equivalent of 1.5x my current monthly salary, to put it in perspective. We pay 50% more for comparable electronics on 1/5th the salary compared to the West, which is many Indians resemble a walking Microcenter after a US vacation as they bring as much can fit back home for their friends and family.

My RTX 3070 was the equivalent of 1.5x my current monthly salary

In what unholy universe can one justify spending 1.5x one's salary on a GPU...

With 1.5x my salary I could buy a... used Ford Mustang (currently debating whether to save for a rainy day or blow it all on a Corvette). But I would still flinch when buying a 3070. In fact I won't. My 1070 serves me fine.

Do you just.. not think about the future or retirement or are you just that bullish on AI doom or have an extensive support network? I literally cannot fathom spending that much on a GPU!

Uh, that's more an indictment of my salary being shit than anything else, why do you think I intend to emigrate?

This was in the middle of the pandemic, and I paid 90k INR for that, or about a thousand USD today. In fact, it might have been two months salary at the time, my current job is about a 50% payraise, but after 2 years, so who knows how much inflation ate up.

A Mustang is 90,000 USD equivalent here (!), or about 12-15 years of my current salary lmao, maybe a year or two for my dad, at the peak of his career. Shit is expensive, and we earn less, what do about it?

When you make such a pittance, you have little incentive to save any of it. If I'm making 5 or 6 times more abroad (at a minimum), then the paltry sum I could save here isn't worth the inability to indulge in my only expensive hobby. But yes, I have plenty of familial support right now, so I don't have to worry about that cash not going to rent, fuel or other expenses. That'll change when I'm out of the country of course.

I actually don't care in the least about retiring, at least not voluntarily. I'm not kidding about my AI timelines, if I'm cost competitive with AGI in 10 years I'll eat my hat. To the extent that I want more money and more savings, it's because money can buy security and safety, I'd rather become unemployed with a hundred k in the bank than when I'm broke!

Okay, I think I underestimated a new Mustangs cost, I'm not anywhere near making 60k USD a month. But that was the most absurd comparison that came to mind, albeit a heavily used Mustang. But eh.

Just don't go crazy when you emigrate and end up with not paltry amounts of money on tap on a monthly basis. Hit yourself in the head with a frying pan and tell yourself "This is not India, COL is higher here, and I don't have parents to support me here" because you might feel like a newly minted millionaire as you do a quick currency conversion in your head.

I'll keep that in mind, but gaming and takeout aside, I'm quite frugal, and the former is unlikely to be a proportionally equivalent expense in the West!

Side note, I saw you liked my recommendation about Outer Wilds and Disco Elysium. Any other game recommendations you think are in a similar tier?

For a shorter Outer Wildsesque experience, try The Forgotten City. It has a similar gameplay loop as TOW and you should go in blind.

Looking at it's price I'd consider putting it on the Steam wishlist and waiting for it to go on sale to 50% or so (I have 12 hours playtime in it compared to 45hrs for TOW). Overall, not as good as The Outer Wilds, but then, what is?

I have played that one! It was pretty good, honestly the ending was a bit of a letdown for me. Didn't feel like it was a very tight plot point. But damn I had so much fun playing through it, the one sequence that's... a bit gruesome was incredible.

If we're talking time-loop story games, I'm going to throw in a recommendation for Elsinore. I did enjoy The Forgotten City, too, although both have the problem that unlike Outer Wilds, the explanation for the time loop just feels like bad writing. Although that felt worse in The Forgotten City because that was the end of the game and it felt unsatisfying.

Only Red Dead 2. I had an emotional reaction to Prince of Persia 2008 but the DLC that provides the true ending is inaccessible because it was only released on console and iirc isn't downloadable anymore.

Is it the one with black goop? Loved it, found it fun how people complained about it being too easy even though the mechanic was functionally just a prettier autosave.

Yeah it was. I don’t mind the autosave system, it makes platforming smoother than Uncharted etc (which as you note have the same system). The casting was great, though, Nolan North is such a hit and miss actor but him and Kari Wahlgren have excellent chemistry.

Ugh console and DRM games are the worst. Thanks for the recommendation for Red Dead 2, I kind of forgot about it but it did have a ton of buzz when it came out. It's on my wishlist.

I tried RDR2, enjoyed the game play, but realized i hated an awful lot of the characters (not in terms of bad writing, but as people). Tempted every now and again to fire it up and go bird watching, but I really wish there was some in-game way to learn about where a breed of horse/critter hangs out.

The animals are usually sketched on the map if you’re looking for where they’re most often found. Birds might be harder though.

Just post on Toms Hardware man.

I'll keep that in mind, but I'm sure there are plenty of local nerds here too!

Most of the advice you got here is much worse than what youd get on Toms.

Very different setup, but I've experienced the exact same issue before. Nothing fixed it until I replaced the CPU completely, but YMMV

I see, I think it's unlikely that it's a CPU problem now, but I'll keep that in the back of my head.

What is this place?

This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.

The weekly Culture War threads host the most controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy; if in doubt, post!

Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts. You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.


Why are you called The Motte?

A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently, it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey", originally identified by philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."

On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.


New post guidelines

If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it. A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).

Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.

If in doubt, please post it!


Rules


Recommended Posts And Communities

Recommended Realtime Chats