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PaperclipPerfector  7mo ago (text post)   4723 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for September 24, 2023

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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I tried some "rejection therapy".

Spoke to some girls on my walk home. 2 average conversations. 1 great conversation. 1 really bad conversation.

0 numbers.

Im not going to lie, the great conversation was a really cute pharmacist I would have loved to get to know more. "Im seeing a guy" felt like a small death. Part of me wishes it wasnt a just a white lie which it most likely is. On net it was a good experience, the rejections gave me more energy not less.

I can see this working out. Not in that anything will come of it directly, but even after 4 attempts social interacrions that felt daunting in the past feel like small fry now. It can be a valuable skill when I will really need it.

I plan to become numb to rejection within a few months. Im gonna do the whole a rejection a day thing.

Im not going to lie, the great conversation was a really cute pharmacist I would have loved to get to know more. "Im seeing a guy" felt like a small death.

Hah, I think I know that feeling. In my case it usually manifests as a small surge of jealousy/envy because (if we assume it is true) some other guy managed to snag her attention and keep her around and my general sense of honor demands that I back off, which is to say I have to garner up a huge amount of confidence/motivation to take the risk, and now I have to shut all that down and suppress the urge to just go full caveman, which is a tricky thing to navigate, emotionally speaking.

Also it prickles the pride (for me, anyway) because now I'm automatically comparing myself to this guy I've never met, and wondering if he's better than me? Because if he isn't then she's clearly making a mistake! She needs to dump that loser and get with a REAL man!

But if he is better, does that mean I'm just not up to snuff in the dating market? What has he got that I don't got?

One of the more difficult paradoxes to resolve is having the pure unadulterated self-confidence to believe that you're a great catch, worthy of getting a high quality woman, and really believing it, and yet also being 'happy' for another guy who ends up with a high quality woman you were eyeing.

Because yeah, if he's better than you, then he deserves it. But if he's better than you, how does your ego deal with that hit? How do you avoid immediately viewing him as a rival?

I've had a fair number of women I've been into and the very second I step into the realm of suggesting a romantic connection they drop the "I have a boyfriend" bomb, and I admit it usually stirs a very basic territorial instinct. "Well have him come over here and we'll duke it out and you can pick the strongest of us as nature intended!"

Most of them, as far as I can tell, are married and often with kids now. Which is to say, they picked well.

One of the more difficult paradoxes to resolve is having the pure unadulterated self-confidence to believe that you're a great catch, worthy of getting a high quality woman, and really believing it, and yet also being 'happy' for another guy who ends up with a high quality woman you were eyeing.

A possible resolution: you are fundamentally disgusting but also an exceptional individual, very conscientious and determined and also caring. As such, your exceptional personal qualities mean that you are in theory worthy of a good relationship with a good woman. However, you also understand that ordinary Joes, lacking both disgust and exceptional characteristics, are also worthy and admirable. Also, you feel that your existence and whatever disgust your kids will inherit is partially a burden on the commons, which you repay through hard work and altruism; it is admirable if Joe gets the girl (meaning that she doesn't have to endure disgust) and if you do (because you have managed to through sheer strength of character to inspire someone to endure disgust to make you happy, and because she is willing to endure as you are for the greater good).

To me it is a little easier to recognize that people have different strengths and weaknesses and that it is impossible to reduce them to a single metric that encompasses everything that might make them attractive.

Guys tend to get overly focused on certain metrics like "how much money he makes" or "how much weight he lifts" or the obvious "how tall is he."

When really, a guy could be strong in some areas and deficient in others, and this doesn't make him 'better' than you, but it might make him a better fit for a particular woman, or it might mean that you would defeat him in most arenas but he's so good at a particular skill set that he would beat 99% of other contenders there, and that counts for a lot but doesn't discount your own strengths.

Like, just because Lance Armstrong could crush me in a cycling race (even sans PEDs) I don't have to consider myself 'lesser' than him. I could probably beat him in a boxing match.

That said, it is still a blow to the ego, since you wonder if you've been maximizing the wrong traits. Also, of course, having a high income/net worth mitigates a LOT of negative traits since, unlike height or strength, it has no strict upper limit.

In my experience, you shouldn't ask for a number but just give yours (or social media tag). Whether the content of the rejection is true or not, it opens up the possibility she saves the contact info and contacts you if things change. Or maybe she is close but needs a little more social proofing to see that you're valued. Even after rejection, you could say you come here often for [insert fun thing here] so hopefully you'll run into each other again. All of the above have worked for me in various contexts.

I plan to become numb to rejection within a few months.

Not being afraid of rejection and not allowing it to fuck with your emotionally state is a hugely advantageous skill which more people should develop. If you're not being rejected in most aspects of life, you're not trying. Good on you!

This seems logical to me. She can actually google you, maybe look you up on LinkedIn before giving her own info.

In my experience, you shouldn't ask for a number but just give yours (or social media tag).

I'm not so sure about this, I've participated in a couple of conversations where the girl hit it off with a guy but then he gave her his number instead of asking for hers. In both cases the girl resolved not to reach out.

They were Hispanic women though so maybe the gender politics were a little more traditional.

Yeah, that's a good point. My experience is mostly in big US cities with white girls.

I thought about it some more and I think it's more of a backup option in case you aren't sure she's really into you or gives you a changeable reason for rejection, e.g., she has a boyfriend. If you guys are hitting it off, it's probably better to just ask for a number or ig tag. If she says she has a boyfriend, you can give her your number or social media.

Which country are you in? I think this is pretty culturally mediated. I don’t mind speaking to polite strangers, but it’s rare in Britain and mostly only happens when people are trying to sell you something (donations for charity, begging, and religious proselytism from large mostly-African or Filipino evangelical megachurches in my experience). In the US speaking to strangers is extremely normalized and seems to happen all the time, even in NYC which has a reputation for being cold or unfriendly by the standards of American cities.

The best thing for social skills is to work in sales for a while. If possible I’ll definitely pressure my kids into taking a summer job in some kind of retail/sales environment as teenagers because all the people I know who did built the confidence there to deal with a lot of different shit in adult life. Smile, look people in the eyes, approach strangers, try to earn a commission, be polite, recognize social cues, it’s all stuff you learn selling shoes or whatever.

I couldn't agree more! I did my time as part of a crew which went around during the summer and painted houses. If you pitched the sale, you got 10% of the contract. I have to admit it was a rough start, but I ended up paying for all my living expenses for college doing it.

Then there's the idea that learning sales frames the world as a sea of marks or buyers to be maneuvered and manipulated. Maybe I'm biased against sales as I saw my dad do it for years and it eventually left a bitter taste. To be a good salesperson requires social savvy, sure, but when you dance with the devil, the devil doesn't change, the devil changes you.

Peripherally relevant but one of my old favorites.

Sales is the worst. Once you really get into the methodology, it changes the way you approach every conversation/interaction.

It's a bit dramatic, but I do believe that learning sales/manipulation/pua techniques is a modern equivalent of selling your soul for worldly gains.

Great. A Faustian bargain where - as is customary - the Devil actually holds up his end of the deal. If pressed, I would suspect that the very popular and the very social have just as cynical views about humanity as the isolated neckbeards, if more measured and refined. However, that is basically just pulled from my ass as well as conversations with friends that knew politician types.

I don't think this is accurate. Unless you're a total sociopath, cynical manipulation can only get you so far. For the most part popular and social folks are just happy. When other people are truly happy you really are drawn to them!

A big part of sales and pua tactics is 'abundance mindset' or basically faking being happy when you aren't.

I have no evidence but I have a very strong hunch that the practical aspects of PUA were almost directly ported over from sales.

Actually I do have a piece of evidence: the way early PUA schemes were marketed showed a marked influence from the web 1.0 sales landing pages (single page, very long, repetitive endorsements from customers, repeated prompts to enter an email for the free book, etc). Also the use of sales terminology like "opening" and "closing".

I suppose it makes sense. You have young men doing sales, making decent money by using a few choice manipulation mechanisms. They decide first to switch to selling their selves to women, and then when it's shown that it works proceeding to selling their techniques back into the market. I think the innovative part of PUA was incorporating evo-psych to explain and contextualise why and how it works.

I think that's what makes FDS such an embarrassment; they show zero curiosity for figuring out what works, why it works, or even whether it works. They're stuck in a blend of basic "diet + cosmetics" magazine tier advice mixed with an internet flavoured radical feminism of pathologising, well, not even masculinity but more the failures of masculinity (porn brain, erectile dysfunction, general "scrote"-ness etc). For people who spend so long in front of the mirror they show a distinct lack of self-reflection. PUA tells men to stop doing what they're doing and do the difficult things they've been avoiding. FDS tells women to keep doing the same thing only more so.

Half the value of PUA is in simply learning what to avoid doing. You don't necessarily have to sell your soul, you can make a big improvement by ceasing to sabotage yourself with rose-tinted romanticism.

What the hell would an effective or valuable version of FDS look like other than simple-but-nontrivial stuff like "be thin, don't be addicted to drugs or alcohol, don't be batshit crazy, have self respect, have a job"?

I have no idea, that's the question isn't it. But if you can entertain the idea that there are women who aren't doing as well as they could because some women are social fuck ups too then it stands to reason there should be practical measures they can take to improve their outcomes. It could range from acknowledging the fertility window, to the poor dating prospects for single mothers, to making an effort to understand what most men want and don't want, through to basic stuff like how to flirt (put the damn phone down!), how to write more than three words on a dating site, and, like I said about PUA, what not to do.

Somewhere out there are women who think that collecting rescue animals, wearing dungarees, spending all day on tumblr and exclusively using photos of themselves in a group of 8 isn't hurting their chances. Moaning about the fact that men like looking at naked women on the internet isn't helping them. Neither is holding on to the idea that there's an athletic, high achieving career focused man who is yearning to take a single mother and her children on an all expenses paid round the world adventure, if only he'd hurry up and find her. "Men are even worse than you thought" is not what they need to hear. Otherwise they'll fall into the MGTOW cope trap where they spend 24/7 thinking about how awful the opposite sex while claiming they've forsworn any interest in them.

The best thing for social skills is to work in sales for a while. If possible I’ll definitely pressure my kids into taking a summer job in some kind of retail/sales environment as teenagers because all the people I know who did built the confidence there to deal with a lot of different shit in adult life. Smile, look people in the eyes, approach strangers, try to earn a commission, be polite, recognize social cues, it’s all stuff you learn selling shoes or whatever.

Yeah sales jobs are practically getting rejected for a living. Even though I think asking for numbers is turning that up to 11 because that has to the potential to hurt on a personal level as opposed to "maybe my employers product just sucks".

But for those who don't want to dive into the deep end, it's a good enough compromise, money notwithstanding.

Which country are you in? I think this is pretty culturally mediated. I don’t mind speaking to polite strangers, but it’s rare in Britain and mostly only happens when people are trying to sell you something (donations for charity, begging, and religious proselytism from large mostly-African or Filipino evangelical megachurches in my experience). In the US speaking to strangers is extremely normalized and seems to happen all the time, even in NYC which has a reputation for being cold or unfriendly by the standards of American cities.

In just about one of the worst places in The World for this. Dubai.

Too many different language barriers and cultures to navigate.

But yeah the US is pretty nice in the regard. I was striking up conversations with Americans in the gas station, game store, street when I was visiting, including in NYC.

Yeah, I like that as an idea. Also aristocratic tutoring in networking and social skill by the most graceful political motherfucker you can find. And life and death struggle, especially for the boys.

Why don't you recommend he try the Hock?

@f3zinker has seen the Hock and is undoubtedly aware of it. The Hock is best when it is freely chosen to freeze weakness off of one's character or soul and allow a person to become Hock hardened. Every man should consider whether or not to Hock and if so, what his Hock looks like. Not everyone's Hock takes place in the Alaskan wilderness. There may be many Hocks, but the Alaskan Hock is mine.

Where did the work Hock come from btw? Is there some real etymology or do you just like the sound of it?

I heard "hock" used by my father as a slang word meaning "to throw": he once told me "Son, you can't just hock that wet log onto the fire like that..."

Of course, I also like the sound.

Emirates flight attendants are the conversationalists you seek.

Aren’t they all hookers?

(Coughs) Well. No. Whatever gave you that idea? I only speak with some degree of knowledge in that I've known at least four of said CAs, one of whom I consider a dear friend, though she quit last year.

But seriously what makes you have that impression?

Aren't we all...? /strokes beard

They are too high end

How are you initiating the conversations?

Find someone who looks free and is standing around doing nothing.

Ask a random innocous question like point at a shop near by and ask about that, followed by a personal question like do you work around here. She will probably ask the same back, if not leave.

Theres a lot of work to be done in that department I agree.

I've been attempting things like this. I'm from the US and living in France for the next few months. So far something I've had some success with is: go to a tourist site of some kind, approach a pretty girl who's by herself, say hi ask her to take a picture of me (in French), offer to do the same, apologize for my accent, and then see if she's interested in chatting. At that point, she can obviously ask me about where I'm from, what I'm doing in France, etc. and I can ask similar questions.

I've tried this a few times and twice it led to us getting coffee or food together after (but nothing beyond that).

I'd like to learn other ways of going about it though.

"Im seeing a guy" felt like a small death.

Back when I was doing this sort of thing, I was genuinely happy to get this sort of response from a girl. Particularly when it was after a great conversation and connection that was pretty unfalsifiable in terms of being genuine. I felt that I had been acknowledged as a man and as being attractive. Her being unavailable was irrelevant. Really encouraging.

I had the same feeling when I was involved in a long term relationship and had a similar conversation with a single bridesmaid at a wedding. I was in a different country at the time. Same great conversation and acknowledgment of each other as attractive and I was upfront about being in a relationship. No hard feelings at all on either side.

Don't let this sort of response get you down at all. It's not the same sort of 'rejection'.

I felt that I had been acknowledged as a man and as being attractive.

I don't think it implies an acknowledgement of attractiveness (only lack thereof).

I'm under the assumption some girls will entertain the conversation just because and the signal for attractiveness is actually giving the digits.

I'm seconding @CertainlyWorse here, getting to "I have a boyfriend" after a long conversation is probably best thought of as an intermediate stage between being shot down completely and getting the number. She needed to reach for a better excuse. If you were just creepy or unattractive, she wouldn't need that reason.

So what's the optimal move when "IHABF" follows a good conversation? Carry on talking and then proposition again?

In my experience, in a different place at a different time with different people, put it on the backburner, friendzone her if that's something you don't mind doing.

I've continued hot pursuit and propositioned again later. This had a high chance of her going on a date with you, only to swerve you when you try to kiss her after the baseball game leaving you sunburned and sniffling. Or at least that was me at seventeen, I've never forgiven the Atlanta Braves.

When I've put it on keep warm, chatting on occasion but keeping it light, there's a decent chance the bf disappears later. Either because they break up on their own, or because she realizes how awesome you are. Either way don't be too invested, follow George's advice.

Always, however, make sure they are really thoroughly broken up, or at least that she very much realizes what she's doing, before she hooks up with you. Post hook up guilt trips have gotten me into the kind of trouble I'm not going to talk about outside DMs; a girl who recently had a bf should be approached with caution, make sure she affirmatively wants to do everything, don't take the glide path.

In my experience it's a segue to sn end to the conversation, but not always. As with everything, it depends. I've had girls drop this but seemingly want to not only keep talking but meet again. The Rule Above All Rules is to roll with it, to show no hurt or disappointment. No need to be funny unless you're naturally so, as that can seem try hard. End of the day, nothing wrong with enjoying a platonic conversation with an attractive woman.

There is a fraction of girls that will sustain an engaged conversation with indications of interest with a man they do not find attractive purely for attention/out of boredom/maintaining social harmony, but I think that percentage would be relatively small. In my examples above, I have experience enough to know that this was (almost certainly) not the case.

Conversely there are girls that will have conversations with men they find attractive, show genuine interest and who will still not give out their number (for whatever reason). Actually having a boyfriend/husband, but being flattered by attention is a really mundane and common scenario that I would be surprised that most men haven't come across.

Getting a kiss/phone number/sex as the only determinants of attraction (while the metric of choice among Lotharios) is a pretty poor thing to base your self esteem around.

Edit: After thinking about it, the time's where I did feel bad after finding out she had a boyfriend is usually when the girl was hiding that fact in the conversation for one reason or another. Then I'd realise she either didn't know how to tell me, or kept the conversation going without telling me for attention. Feeling lousy after the conversation is probably a good way to tell the girl wasn't attracted.

Not only that...it's a very nice way to do things. At no point does he recount being seen as transgressive or anything for his actions; nobody called the cops on him or tried to beat him up or anything like that. He's pretty lucky and should run with it.

I feel as if you must have either immersed yourself in some really angry, fairly unrealistic online discourse regarding the dating scene, or that you yourself have had some fairly horrible experiences in your romantic interactions with women. I am not suggesting that terrible outcomes are not possible, but the likelihood of being beat up or having the cops called on anyone for approaching a woman seems exceedingly low, unless of course you are doing something very, very wrong (I mean like wearing a shirt covered in blood level wrong).

I once had a woman approach me at a New years party at a geek bar, talk about how she couldn't find her friend, ask me if I'd like a drink. Tiny, dark hair, amazingly defined upper back.

Then while she was in the bathroom, an unaffiliated fat redhead got in my face and demanded to know who I was and if I knew her. I said "Her name is *****, we're looking for her friend or something, I'm waiting here while she's in the bathroom, oh look, there's *****. Bye."

10 minutes later we're dancing. 12 minutes later, security has separated the two of us and is interrogating me while a fat redhead screams in my face as the new year gets rung in. No idea where ***** was taken.

That seems extremely atypical and I wouldn’t base much about that - did you get kicked out of the bar?

I left of my own accord because security kept talking me in circles, asking who I was with (no one, I had just moved to Milwaukee and was there to meet new friends) and not letting me go find wherever ***** had been taken.

Not terrible - simply "it could be worse, and occasionally is for some rather unlucky individuals". If you're a middle-class grown adult in a middle-class area and there's no bullshit going on that makes you a harassment magnet for local cops, it's pretty damn unlikely. They don't go to school or worse yet, work with him; the worst they could do is blow up his social circles and make it so he has to find new friends, and there would need to be a fair amount of motivation to do that. He'd have to transgress somehow - which he has clearly not done.

Not just that. Nobody called the cops on you. Nobody tried to get you maimed or killed - or even beat up. Nobody tried to get you fired. In fact...I'd guess that the "really bad conversation" wasn't terrible - they didn't call you a rapist or something or make a scene. You're not unattractive, bro...keep up the good work.

That doesn’t even happen to schizophrenic bums who threaten people- the chance is pretty much 0%.

As one black pilled man to another, you are not blackpilled enough if you think those things are failure modes. For me lack of a number in and of itself is.

Nevertheless, It's a failure to get numbers, but a success in getting a rejection, which is my entire intention. I'm training myself to act fast when there is a short window of opportunity and brush of the most likely rejection. My goal is that the no fucks given attitude I practice in the streets will be useful in places where I am more likely to actually get any better responses such as within my network.

There is failure (small, expected,cost of doing business) and then there is catastrophic and unexpected failure. It's the difference between a WallStreetBets ape losing a few hundred bucks on the stock market and that same ape being kidnapped, tortured, and ransomed for the contents of his bank account.

Not just that. Nobody called the cops on you. Nobody tried to get you maimed or killed - or even beat up. Nobody tried to get you fired. In fact...I'd guess that the "really bad conversation" wasn't terrible - they didn't call you a rapist or something or make a scene. You're not unattractive, bro...keep up the good work.

Had any of these things happened to you?

No. Did get ostracized in college for a couple years until I said I was dedicating my life to science and the practice of medicine though.

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