naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
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Israel-Gaza Megathread #2
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
How are people still so naive about Islamic extremists? After ISIS, The Taliban, Al Qaeda, 9/11, all of the terrorist attacks in Europe, etc you still have people in the West who refuse to believe Islamic extremists (which includes Hamas) could commit atrocities and are bad faith actors in this conflict.
Take for example the 40 babies fiasco, where many people (especially on the Left) were talking about war propaganda and how dumb people were for believing that Hamas would do that. Islamic extremists absolutely would do that! These same people who on the same day shot up a whole music festival, murdered innocent children and took toddlers as hostages! But we are supposed to believe killing babies is too far? There is almost no amount of savagery by Islamic extremists that should shock anyone at this point, especially after ISIS, but here we are I guess.
Or take for another example this hospital explosion. It's looking like Israel didn't do it based on new intelligence, but maybe they did. At this point it still is unclear. But one thing I know for sure is that you should not take the word of Hamas seriously on who did it. This is an organization who has put weapons under hospitals and schools and is known to not give a shit if their actions led to Palestinian children's deaths. In fact, they often try to make that happen as a weapon in the information war against. So yes, they absolutely would blow up their own hospital to make Israel look bad, so you shouldn't take the word of Islamic extremists seriously on this issue. Yet you have journalists and politicians in the West taking them at their word on this atrocity. Ironically, these are often some of the same kinds of people who make fun of the Right for falling for fake news and Russian disinformation.
I'm truly at a loss for words here with this conflict. How is this possible? Is there anything that can wake people up to this issue after all these years or is this just something we have to live with?
No? I think that a claim circulating earlier that Hamas beheaded 40 babies was dubious. You know it’s possible to think that Hamas does bad things without uncritically accepting every claim that’s made by Hamas’s foes, right?
It looks like that story wasn't true or exaggerated. But considering the litany of atrocities they committed that same day and were proud of, acting like they wouldn't is ridiculous. There was a hyper focus on whether or not the babies were beheaded or not. It's like fine, they didn't behead the babies, they just did all these other things we know are true that are just as bad. People wanted to focus on that to cast doubt on the other things they did that day, which is absurd because they broadcasted it to the world. Whether or not they did it, that is a debate. What isn't up for debate is if they would kill children because they literally did it that same day and Islamists have done so for decades. And this is true regardless of what Israel did, didn't do, or will do in the future.
A soldier said on camera that many children had been killed and they even saw a beheaded child. The i24 (Israeli news channel) reporter repeated that, jumbled it up, others jumbled it up further, military didn’t comment until it had verified the situation. It now turns out that up to 40 kids were killed (expected given demographics of kibbutzim, high fertility rates among even modern orthodox Jewry, and total population), including babies, and that one young child was seemingly beheaded.
Far from some deliberate propaganda effort, that’s exactly how things are supposed to work, the military didn’t officially confirm until they had the information.
Me or the Israelis? Because from what I saw that wasn't reported by the IDF but instead by some random Israeli and the news picked up on it uncritically.
The people I've seen focusing most on the beheaded babies are the ones claiming that there were beheaded babies. I think it's fair to point out that we don't actually know that they actually beheaded babies.
Indeed. Credibility matters. You don't get to push fake nonsense and expect people to believe you afterwards.
It makes me think of some US political spat I can barely remember. I think some congressman made an incondiary claim that was proven false, then responded by saying something like "yeah but they would if they could". Like, no dude, you don't get credit here. You lied.
No released photographic evidence, but officials have told us they have seen the photos.
I assume out of respect for the dead they're not being released. If my child were beheaded I wouldn't want those photos out on the Internet, either. I wouldn't really care if it assuaged conspiracy theorists, people would just say they're AI-generated anyway.
To be clear, what happened was: “interested party A claims their enemies committed particularly heinous act, source: trust me bro” and now you’re calling people who would like better evidence conspiracy theorists? Weird inversion of burden of proof particularly on a site like this.
Yeah, I can't tell for sure (because of censorship/fire damage) but it doesn't look like it. And I doubt they have a secret stash of even more shocking images.
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Notes -
How are people still so naive about Islamic extremists? After ISIS, The Taliban, Al Qaeda, 9/11, all of the terrorist attacks in Europe, etc you still have people in the West who refuse to believe Islamic extremists (which includes Hamas) could commit atrocities and are bad faith actors in this conflict.
Take for example the 40 babies fiasco, where many people (especially on the Left) were talking about war propaganda and how dumb people were for believing that Hamas would do that. Islamic extremists absolutely would do that! These same people who on the same day shot up a whole music festival, murdered innocent children and took toddlers as hostages! But we are supposed to believe killing babies is too far? There is almost no amount of savagery by Islamic extremists that should shock anyone at this point, especially after ISIS, but here we are I guess.
Or take for another example this hospital explosion. It's looking like Israel didn't do it based on new intelligence, but maybe they did. At this point it still is unclear. But one thing I know for sure is that you should not take the word of Hamas seriously on who did it. This is an organization who has put weapons under hospitals and schools and is known to not give a shit if their actions led to Palestinian children's deaths. In fact, they often try to make that happen as a weapon in the information war against. So yes, they absolutely would blow up their own hospital to make Israel look bad, so you shouldn't take the word of Islamic extremists seriously on this issue. Yet you have journalists and politicians in the West taking them at their word on this atrocity. Ironically, these are often some of the same kinds of people who make fun of the Right for falling for fake news and Russian disinformation.
I'm truly at a loss for words here with this conflict. How is this possible? Is there anything that can wake people up to this issue after all these years or is this just something we have to live with?
As far as I am aware, there is still no evidence they beheaded any babies.
I said the same thing on an earlier thread and someone likened me to Alex Jones, lol.
No? I think that a claim circulating earlier that Hamas beheaded 40 babies was dubious. You know it’s possible to think that Hamas does bad things without uncritically accepting every claim that’s made by Hamas’s foes, right?
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No. You questioned whether any babies were killed. And then I called you Alex Jones.
No? Read the thread instead of making things up.
Et tu
@zeke5123, maybe you're thinking of your conversation with @jfk. (https://www.themotte.org/post/716/israelgaza-megathread-2/150623?context=8#context) in which @jfk kinda sorta questions whether anyone was killed, and you called him Alex Jones rather than your conversation with @Tomato where he brought up a news article (https://www.themotte.org/post/716/israelgaza-megathread-2/149971?context=8#context) and you said that it's Alex Jones-level denial.
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It looks like that story wasn't true or exaggerated. But considering the litany of atrocities they committed that same day and were proud of, acting like they wouldn't is ridiculous. There was a hyper focus on whether or not the babies were beheaded or not. It's like fine, they didn't behead the babies, they just did all these other things we know are true that are just as bad. People wanted to focus on that to cast doubt on the other things they did that day, which is absurd because they broadcasted it to the world. Whether or not they did it, that is a debate. What isn't up for debate is if they would kill children because they literally did it that same day and Islamists have done so for decades. And this is true regardless of what Israel did, didn't do, or will do in the future.
Why make a doubtful unverified story the first example of atrocities you cite?
A soldier said on camera that many children had been killed and they even saw a beheaded child. The i24 (Israeli news channel) reporter repeated that, jumbled it up, others jumbled it up further, military didn’t comment until it had verified the situation. It now turns out that up to 40 kids were killed (expected given demographics of kibbutzim, high fertility rates among even modern orthodox Jewry, and total population), including babies, and that one young child was seemingly beheaded.
Far from some deliberate propaganda effort, that’s exactly how things are supposed to work, the military didn’t officially confirm until they had the information.
IMO, the military could have immediately "debunked" the 40 beheaded babies story, but let it run wild for awhile anyways for obvious reasons.
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Me or the Israelis? Because from what I saw that wasn't reported by the IDF but instead by some random Israeli and the news picked up on it uncritically.
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The people I've seen focusing most on the beheaded babies are the ones claiming that there were beheaded babies. I think it's fair to point out that we don't actually know that they actually beheaded babies.
Indeed. Credibility matters. You don't get to push fake nonsense and expect people to believe you afterwards.
It makes me think of some US political spat I can barely remember. I think some congressman made an incondiary claim that was proven false, then responded by saying something like "yeah but they would if they could". Like, no dude, you don't get credit here. You lied.
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No released photographic evidence, but officials have told us they have seen the photos.
I assume out of respect for the dead they're not being released. If my child were beheaded I wouldn't want those photos out on the Internet, either. I wouldn't really care if it assuaged conspiracy theorists, people would just say they're AI-generated anyway.
To be clear, what happened was: “interested party A claims their enemies committed particularly heinous act, source: trust me bro” and now you’re calling people who would like better evidence conspiracy theorists? Weird inversion of burden of proof particularly on a site like this.
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Photos of the babies have been released. But as far as I know, none was beheaded.
I've seen a photo of two babies burned black. But no beheaded ones.
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Yeah, I can't tell for sure (because of censorship/fire damage) but it doesn't look like it. And I doubt they have a secret stash of even more shocking images.
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Then why did they release photos of other dead babies on Twitter?
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I thought Biden said he saw them and then later "clarified" that he didn't.
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