naraburns nihil supernum
6mo ago
(text post)
12686 thread views
Israel-Gaza Megathread #3
This is a refreshed megathread for any posts on the conflict between (so far, and so far as I know) Hamas and the Israeli government, as well as related geopolitics. Culture War thread rules apply.
Regarding Western liberal narratives on the Gaza war, I’m noticing something I find somewhat odd. I see mainstream liberals arguing that clueless college students are indoctrinated by loony leftist propagandists to be rabid enemies of Israel, our greatest ally, the only democracy in the Middle East etc. And they seem to be saying this without any reflection on the past, where conservatives they hate, like Ben Shapiro and others, have been warning everyone of the same trend for basically two decades, at least since the early years of Bush Jr’s presidency. Now that the true extent of anti-Zionist agitation on Western college campuses is revealed on prime TV for the first time in almost a decade (the last major Israeli military operation in Gaza was in 2014, I reckon, not counting the mass shootings at the border in 2018 or so), targeted at a nation and a people they actually care about, suddenly it’s a real problem, a real concern to be tackled.
Now I understand that one can come up with all sorts of cynical and mundane interpretations as to why this is, how it’s unsurprising and so on, and I get that. But then I remember that there were violent anti-police protests in the summer of 2020, the campaign to remove Confederate monuments, the various protests against Trump’s rallies, and in these cases the tone of the protests were, as far as I can tell, pretty much set by the same leftist college agitators who initiate the current anti-Zionist protests, the ones who call themselves anticolonialists, social justice advocates, antiracists and so on. And the big difference was that they weren’t criticized by mainstream liberals the way they are now, even though all their agitation and messaging stems from the same ideological tenets.
I think it's important to remember that while conservatives and the right have complained about college campuses for a long time, they really didn't do anything to address it until the past few years. Liberals were still in the coping stage of they'll grow up and become more reasonable once they get a job and a family that conservatives had for a very long time. Plus that kind of activism was useful to them. However, now they are in the stage where they are realizing that this is a real problem and are freaking out, but they can't admit the right was right because the Trump threat is looming. Politicians are in the habit of letting things get so bad and continually kicking them down the road until it gets so bad they can't ignore it. I think this is one of those moments for them. I don't think there's much they can do though because this has been a problem since the 1960's. Nobody has the stones to do what would actually need to be done to root this out of our institutions.
That would be to bring back loco parentis. And in turn that would entail cracking down on the idea of universities as 1-star resorts that also have classes which everyone is entitled to go to for four years.
The legal principle(now abolished) that colleges have some parental rights and responsibilities over their students(and even in the west parents usually have some added rights of control over very young adult children).
College kids do not jump at these extreme ideologies because the adults not supervising them push it, they do it because they're unsupervised teenagers being catered to in a compound full of unsupervised teenagers who are following peer pressure. And fixing that requires going back to the prior legal regime granting universities wide latitude in regulating student's personal lives.
magic9mushroom
If you're going to downvote me, and nobody's already voiced your objection, please reply and tell me
hydroacetylene 6mo ago
You should never hand someone a gun unless you're sure where they'll point it. While in this one highly-specific case universities would probably act as you want, out of fear of the Zionist lobby getting their donations pulled, outside of that they have no real interest in stopping SJ lunacy and a huge amount of interest in purging themselves of rightists.
And the academy didn’t used to be so left. In fact the lurch to the left came when in loco parentis became illegal.
This is because it is much more appealing for unsupervised leisure class teenagers(which is what college kids are) to join up with the ideology that lets them fornicate and experiment with substances. The lurch to the left is entirely predictable on that basis when you add peer pressure and signaling dynamics. Even in Greece and Rome the conservative elites of the day complained about the unsupervised leisure class teens of the day shifting in ways that are certainly reminiscent of university leftism even if they don’t match 100%.
magic9mushroom
If you're going to downvote me, and nobody's already voiced your objection, please reply and tell me
hydroacetylene 6mo ago
And the academy didn’t used to be so left. In fact the lurch to the left came when in loco parentis became illegal.
That doesn't mean that reinstating ILP will cause a reversal of the academy's politics!
This is a loaded analogy, but I can't think of a better one, so: if there are rabbits in the east and no rabbits in the west due to a fence, you tear the fence down, and then you put it back up fifty years later, that won't disintegrate the rabbits that are now in the west.
No, it does not, but in order to make your eradication of rabbits in the west stick you need that fence- as NZ's quixotic obsession with getting rid of invasive species has found. ILP is the fence; not sufficient in itself, but very definitely the precondition for making any of your efforts work.
If you don't know, Duck Duck Go is just an https call away. It's a legal phrase that means that the schools have broader authority and act in place of the parents since the parents aren't there.
The implication is that irresponsible parents are offloading parenting to institutions which aren’t up for the task. If only they’d chosen traditional marriage instead of (dual-income/single parenthood/homosexuality/etc.), we wouldn’t be in this mess.
I think there are some obvious holes in the theory, starting perhaps with the Beat generation. But it has a certain appeal.
This website is a place for people who want to move past shady thinking and test their ideas in a
court of people who don't all share the same biases. Our goal is to
optimize for light, not heat; this is a group effort, and all commentators are asked to do their part.
The weekly Culture War threads host the most
controversial topics and are the most visible aspect of The Motte. However, many other topics are
appropriate here. We encourage people to post anything related to science, politics, or philosophy;
if in doubt, post!
Check out The Vault for an archive of old quality posts.
You are encouraged to crosspost these elsewhere.
Why are you called The Motte?
A motte is a stone keep on a raised earthwork common in early medieval fortifications. More pertinently,
it's an element in a rhetorical move called a "Motte-and-Bailey",
originally identified by
philosopher Nicholas Shackel. It describes the tendency in discourse for people to move from a controversial
but high value claim to a defensible but less exciting one upon any resistance to the former. He likens
this to the medieval fortification, where a desirable land (the bailey) is abandoned when in danger for
the more easily defended motte. In Shackel's words, "The Motte represents the defensible but undesired
propositions to which one retreats when hard pressed."
On The Motte, always attempt to remain inside your defensible territory, even if you are not being pressed.
New post guidelines
If you're posting something that isn't related to the culture war, we encourage you to post a thread for it.
A submission statement is highly appreciated, but isn't necessary for text posts or links to largely-text posts
such as blogs or news articles; if we're unsure of the value of your post, we might remove it until you add a
submission statement. A submission statement is required for non-text sources (videos, podcasts, images).
Culture war posts go in the culture war thread; all links must either include a submission statement or
significant commentary. Bare links without those will be removed.
Jump in the discussion.
No email address required.
Notes -
Regarding Western liberal narratives on the Gaza war, I’m noticing something I find somewhat odd. I see mainstream liberals arguing that clueless college students are indoctrinated by loony leftist propagandists to be rabid enemies of Israel, our greatest ally, the only democracy in the Middle East etc. And they seem to be saying this without any reflection on the past, where conservatives they hate, like Ben Shapiro and others, have been warning everyone of the same trend for basically two decades, at least since the early years of Bush Jr’s presidency. Now that the true extent of anti-Zionist agitation on Western college campuses is revealed on prime TV for the first time in almost a decade (the last major Israeli military operation in Gaza was in 2014, I reckon, not counting the mass shootings at the border in 2018 or so), targeted at a nation and a people they actually care about, suddenly it’s a real problem, a real concern to be tackled.
Now I understand that one can come up with all sorts of cynical and mundane interpretations as to why this is, how it’s unsurprising and so on, and I get that. But then I remember that there were violent anti-police protests in the summer of 2020, the campaign to remove Confederate monuments, the various protests against Trump’s rallies, and in these cases the tone of the protests were, as far as I can tell, pretty much set by the same leftist college agitators who initiate the current anti-Zionist protests, the ones who call themselves anticolonialists, social justice advocates, antiracists and so on. And the big difference was that they weren’t criticized by mainstream liberals the way they are now, even though all their agitation and messaging stems from the same ideological tenets.
I think it's important to remember that while conservatives and the right have complained about college campuses for a long time, they really didn't do anything to address it until the past few years. Liberals were still in the coping stage of they'll grow up and become more reasonable once they get a job and a family that conservatives had for a very long time. Plus that kind of activism was useful to them. However, now they are in the stage where they are realizing that this is a real problem and are freaking out, but they can't admit the right was right because the Trump threat is looming. Politicians are in the habit of letting things get so bad and continually kicking them down the road until it gets so bad they can't ignore it. I think this is one of those moments for them. I don't think there's much they can do though because this has been a problem since the 1960's. Nobody has the stones to do what would actually need to be done to root this out of our institutions.
That would be to bring back loco parentis. And in turn that would entail cracking down on the idea of universities as 1-star resorts that also have classes which everyone is entitled to go to for four years.
Not going to happen.
What is loco parentis? Why would it help?
The legal principle(now abolished) that colleges have some parental rights and responsibilities over their students(and even in the west parents usually have some added rights of control over very young adult children).
College kids do not jump at these extreme ideologies because the adults not supervising them push it, they do it because they're unsupervised teenagers being catered to in a compound full of unsupervised teenagers who are following peer pressure. And fixing that requires going back to the prior legal regime granting universities wide latitude in regulating student's personal lives.
You should never hand someone a gun unless you're sure where they'll point it. While in this one highly-specific case universities would probably act as you want, out of fear of the Zionist lobby getting their donations pulled, outside of that they have no real interest in stopping SJ lunacy and a huge amount of interest in purging themselves of rightists.
And the academy didn’t used to be so left. In fact the lurch to the left came when in loco parentis became illegal.
This is because it is much more appealing for unsupervised leisure class teenagers(which is what college kids are) to join up with the ideology that lets them fornicate and experiment with substances. The lurch to the left is entirely predictable on that basis when you add peer pressure and signaling dynamics. Even in Greece and Rome the conservative elites of the day complained about the unsupervised leisure class teens of the day shifting in ways that are certainly reminiscent of university leftism even if they don’t match 100%.
That doesn't mean that reinstating ILP will cause a reversal of the academy's politics!
This is a loaded analogy, but I can't think of a better one, so: if there are rabbits in the east and no rabbits in the west due to a fence, you tear the fence down, and then you put it back up fifty years later, that won't disintegrate the rabbits that are now in the west.
No, it does not, but in order to make your eradication of rabbits in the west stick you need that fence- as NZ's quixotic obsession with getting rid of invasive species has found. ILP is the fence; not sufficient in itself, but very definitely the precondition for making any of your efforts work.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
In loco parentis.
More options
Context Copy link
It means that their parents are just as crazy?
If you don't know, Duck Duck Go is just an https call away. It's a legal phrase that means that the schools have broader authority and act in place of the parents since the parents aren't there.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_loco_parentis
This means no authority at all, students over 18 are adults and their parents have no longer any (legal) power over them.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
The implication is that irresponsible parents are offloading parenting to institutions which aren’t up for the task. If only they’d chosen traditional marriage instead of (dual-income/single parenthood/homosexuality/etc.), we wouldn’t be in this mess.
I think there are some obvious holes in the theory, starting perhaps with the Beat generation. But it has a certain appeal.
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link
More options
Context Copy link