domain:badcyber.com
Southkraut
Vibe of vibes, saith the Preacher, vibe of vibes; all is vibe.
3hr ago
a promise is just a promise
This is an annoying thing to read; an aggravating sentiment to encounter. It seems not alright for a promise to be "just a promise". Yet it's something that very many take to be obvious and true - but then why have promises at all? Promises should be a foundational social institution, not a nonsensical rhetorical flourish like the by-now codifiedly useless literally/"literally" distinction. Breaking a promise should be a big deal.
That vows are impossible in secular society and that someone can say a thing like "just a promise" without getting tarred and feathered is a serious failing of modernity.
...it's always been that way, hasn't it?
FiveHourMarathon
Wawa Nationalist
3hr ago
I, too, don't really care about the distinction. Absent possible divine punishment, the concept of a promise of celibacy or chastity is kind of ridiculous. It fails often enough with the possibility of divine punishment!
This isn't just limited to celibacy: without divine witness, a promise is just a promise. "Words are wind" to stick with the GRRM theme of the thread.
IGI-111
God was a dream of good government.
3hr ago
It's true, accusations of LARPing always discount the fact that literally all revolutions and social movements were LARPs originally.
However, efficient politics requires efficient tactics. And there are many criticisms one can make of the Benedict option as ineffective to achieve one's goals. "It's a LARP" is the weakest argument, but it is not the only argument.
I think "you won't be allowed to exit" is much stronger. People like to employ striking examples like Waco or Ruby Ridge but in truth even milder examples are legion.
Consider the recent Men In Sheds shenanigans. As long as you're not allowed to exclude people out of your organizations in practice, you don't have freedom of association, so you don't have access to the Benedict option. You can't be an ineffectual and inoffensive separatist if the people who rule you want to force you to participate in their society.
Far from me to discourage people from trying to build ground game and organic institutions. I think that's a worthwhile effort and a necessary component of any political or social movement, but that alone is ineffectual on its own. Top down elite power is the much more radical requirement.
Tree
3hr ago
Pretty good idea, I have a lot in cash and defensive stocks atm myself. This paper argues that you should only invest at ATH and bail when the going gets tough.
From a practical perspective applying the social responsibility to cultural producers also seems easier. It feels like they've weaseled out of that responsibility somehow
Quite the opposite. All we hear about is how cultural producers have vast control over the general society and how they should use those powers for good instead of abdicating their responsibility.
The rise of endlessly and self-consciously didactic work is a product of moralism not its absence.
Capital_Room
rather dementor-like
3hr ago
When is it acceptable to pee on the side of the road?
Per my Alaskan upbringing — including a childhood where a 6-7 hour roadtrip across 220+ miles of road (one way), much of it winding two-lane mountain roads where it can be 80+ miles between gas stations, and there's often nowhere to pull off the road except the occasional gravel pit, was a common summer weekend activity — the answer was "whenever you can get far enough into the trees/bushes that someone on the road can't readily see you're doing so."
Capital_Room
rather dementor-like
3hr ago
So, there's a recurring criticism I see in many spaces regarding various right-wing projects in building parallel institutions, alternative ideological frames to that of the left, cultural resilience, and so on (ranging from critics of "Benedict Option" strategies, to Neema Parvini when talking about why "American nationalism" does not and cannot exist), which is that the thing in question is "a LARP," or "LARP-y," or something similar. Which is to say that it is "performative," that the actions aren't backed by some sort of deep-down "genuine" belief.
To which I say: so what?
First, whence this idea that the "deep-down" internal mindset of a person is more important than the actions themselves? Do a person's deeds carry so little weight, compared to their mental state when doing them?
But more importantly, isn't this how anyone gets started with something? I mean, a lot of the examples that come to my mind are things that I'm only familiar with second-hand, but I'll try to explain.
I'm old enough that back in the first few grades of elementary school, they made us stand and recite the Pledge of Allegiance every day. I think back on us as first graders, doing that. Were we actually earnestly pledging our undying allegiance to the Republic and its flag? We didn't even understand all the words we were saying. We were just reciting what we were told to recite, the way we were taught to recite it, because we didn't want to get in trouble. It was all fake, all performative, all "a LARP."
Those of you who grew up religious, did you really understand every hymn you sang, every element of each ritual you participated in, from the very first time you did it? Or was there at least some "going through the motions" and mimicking your elders, with true understanding coming later?
In one of the replies to that Twitter post on the "homeschool prom" linked late last thread, someone described school dances as "a LARP" of the actual 'courtship' scene/process. Well, how else do people learn?
One common criticism of Pascal's Wager is that, even if you buy the argument, it only serves to persuade you that you should believe God exists, and there's a clear gap between thinking "I should believe God exists" and thinking "God exists." I mention it, because Pascal himself addressed this point shortly after introducing the Wager. And his answer is LARPing. Once you're convinced you should believe in God, then start acting as if He exists. "LARP" as a person who believes in God. If you do it thoroughly enough for long enough, Pascal argues, you'll start to actually believe it.
I've seen similar arguments in everything from job interview advice to dating advice — picture the person you want to be, and then act as they would, even if it's "all pretend."
It all comes down to the same classic piece of advice: "fake it till you make it." And what is the "fake it" stage, if not "LARP-y"? If not "performative" and, well, fake?
The reason given for this strategy is that it rarely stays fake forever. Maintaining a performative pretense, saying and doing one thing all while constantly going "this is silly, this is stupid, this is fake, this isn't me, I don't believe any of this" in your head is hard (at least for non-sociopaths). It's why governments have made citizens recite propaganda slogans over and over, why they made us say the Pledge of Allegiance over and over — because many times, it doesn't stay fake, doesn't stay merely performative. Again, it's fake it till you make it.
And even if an individual never "makes it," never achieves real belief no matter how long they perfectly maintain "the LARP"? Well, when we're talking about a long-term project involving a significant number of people, you have to consider future generations. Which gets to a concept mentioned here on the Motte before: generational loss of hypocrisy. Even if the first generation never get rid of their inner "this is so fake" thoughts… well, the next generations — whether that's new recruits, or their literal children — can't see those inner thoughts, only the outer "act." The LARP will not be multi-generational. To quote @WhiningCoil again:
I'm reminded of some joke about the difference between a cult and a religion. A cult is all made up by people. In a religion, all those people are dead.
So, to sum up, the accusation that a project of this sort is "LARP-y" is kind of irrelevant. Yes, it'll be LARP-y to start with; it kind of has to be. That's how things work. It's a phase — a necessary phase in the process of becoming something more, and if the people involved stay determined enough, and keep it up long enough, that phase will pass, and it will become something more.
Fake it till you make it.
(I'm hoping this isn't too incoherent, and isn't too low effort for a top-level post.)
Greetings fellow Mottizens!
I greatly appreciate those of you who participated in the romantic preferences survey which allowed me to map out our preferences towards women. Thank you!
However, it's been months, and I still have only 189 respondents who've shared their Romantic Preferences Towards Men.
If you're interested in seeing how this turns out, more responses from gay and bisexual men are definitely helpful, and, I would greatly appreciate it if you could also spread the word about the survey to your lady friends so that I could have a balanced representation of genders and orientations for analysis.
Tree
3hr ago
I have no ideological affinity to hlynka, quite the contrary, since he was once the most pro-censorship of all the mods of this place, and I think they should ease up on it.
Lykurg
We're all living in Amerika
4hr ago
Then why not donate to Dylan Roof, as the xitter compares? Ethnic hostility can still be about particular circumstances, such as the norms around the nuclear word.
zeke5123a
4hr ago
So the scandal is in part that Ms Dong wanted the dong of her attending? I’ll show myself out…
But Vivek appears to have missed the last 30 years. Right after his youth came Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. The nerd became cool. Over the late-90s/early-2000s, the nerd was an ascendent underdog
Thats because what Vivek is actually complaining about is the absence of sufficient credentialism (in his eyes, I imagine many Americans think there's already too much).
He wants some South Korean/Indian model where people are told what to grind and then rewarded for meeting the goal with the right certificate.
The actual computer nerd hero origin story is about breaking the path, one way or another. You're cooler for dropping out of Stanford or some such school that an immigrant child would kill to get a degree from to do something amazing.
The Social Network has a scene laying this out. Zuck doesn't need the class. He's that good. That's the dream. Not getting a nice shiny A.
As for Woke Culture being the fault of nerds...debatable. I recall when nerds were the irreverent types. If anything, that was the line of attack: nerds were low SMV types who were inordinately pleased with themselves and resentful at women for not agreeing.
I remember when feminists were hunting nerds for wearing the wrong shirt or having the wrong opinion.
I'll cop to the dishonesty with which nerds approach their own sexuality. But , even here, we're downstream of a generation's worth of negative messaging about what nerdy men actually like. The overly-online "Step on me mommy" stuff is viscerally disgusting but it is safe/"unproblematic" after constant objectification discourse around unapologetic nerd thirsting for their sex symbols. In the real world it doesn't matter as much. But people don't want to be continually whined at or browbeaten online.
Why wouldn't it just be that what happened to everything else happened to nerd spaces too, especially since a lot of successful nerds were within the academy or tech companies in liberal states and nerds can be quite secular and progressive?
OliveTapenade
4hr ago
My experience was probably atypical, because I went to a boys' school. It had a parallel institution, a girls' school, and the idea was that they would occasionally crossover for social events. The girls' school was both much older and much larger, so it had a significantly larger student base.
I remember at social events and dances, what usually happened was that the boys were maybe 20-25% of the room, and they would all bunker up defensively in a corner, unsure of the female strangers who made up the rest of the room, and likewise the girls would eye all the boys nervously. There was a large gap between them and neither side crossed it.
This was before smartphones so I don't think you can blame it on that. This is all millennials. It's just that when your social scene is extremely segregated by gender, you're naturally going to cluster with your friends whom you trust, and nobody wants to draw attention to himself or herself by being the first one to try to cross the gulf.
(There was, for what it's worth, zero mention of homosexuality on either side - neither ironic nor serious. I attribute this mostly to them being conservative religious private schools. I don't think I fully understood the concept of homosexuality until after I had graduated. In many ways I wish for that innocence back.)
FiveHourMarathon
Wawa Nationalist
4hr ago
Why not just use the terms that exist, like polyandry or cuckoldry or open marriage?
Tanista
4hr ago
I distinctly remember seeing the "ironic homosexuality to avoid asking a girl to dance" strat at our first high school dance, because it wasn't exactly common behavior to ape the gays.
It was mostly just anxiety I think. People grew out of it before the next year.
cae_jones
4hr ago
IDK if my experience is relevant, but ...
As part of junior orientation at the math-and-science high school I attended, there was a dance. Having avoided all school dances up to that point, I decided to see what all the fuss was about, and also there were two girls I hadn't spoken to who went out of their way to find me beforehand to be first in line, so w/e. I had no experience or education on anything dance-related other than one squaredancing class in 4th grade PE, so the girls did the leading.
Going from "I bearly know your name" to hands on swaying hips for minutes at a time was kinda traumatizing and I spent the rest of the event curled into a ball on a bench trying to sleep.
This was 2004. This school also had a weird gimmicky rent-a-senior day, and all I remember about that was that someone used this to force an outspoken Republican student to stand in the cafeteria with a pro-Democrat sign at one point, and when I was in earshot, he reacted to one of the people wisecracking at him with "Yeah; we should just give everyone money," in a bitter voice. And I thought, "lol silly hyperbolic republican, acting like democrats want to give-everyone money." The slope seems way less slippery at the top.
BurdensomeCount
Messenger Status: Shot
4hr ago
How is that a functor?
BurdensomeCount
Messenger Status: Shot
4hr ago
Prom: A musical festival held during the summer at the Royal Albert Hall. Can recommend.
DiscourseMagnus
5hr ago
Definitionally, sure, but I think it's connotationally out.
sun_the_second
5hr ago
It is often difficult to distinguish a vow from an oath. A vow is an oath, but an oath is only a vow if the divine being is the recipient of the promise and is not merely a witness.
TIL. However, I assume Capital_Room is among those who don't care about the distinction.
BurdensomeCount
Messenger Status: Shot
5hr ago
Do the boys know how to play the role of lead in a partner dance?
This is not necessary. Learning how to lead properly takes 4+ years if you put effort into your dancing (by this I mean frequent lessons etc.). For people just starting out it's better for both the leader and followers to be responsible for their own steps, otherwise it just feels (and even worse, looks) awkward.
BurdensomeCount
Messenger Status: Shot
5hr ago
Yep, as they say: Out of sight, out of mind. Just don't attend one of these dances and nobody will even think about you enough to gossip. Instead the right way of doing things is to hold a meeting with both the boys and girls present some days beforehand telling them of expected etiquette and warning the girls in full view of the boys that it is expected that any boy might approach them during the dance and to not attend if they don't feel comfortable with that happening (rejecting a dance with a boy is fine, but each girl must at least be open to being approached by anyone). That way all the boys will know at the very start of the dance that any girl present will be open to a request to dance and won't be so scared of breaking norms.
FiveHourMarathon
Wawa Nationalist
5hr ago
Nothing permanent, as the whole concept of a vow is illogical for a non religious organization.
In my view this means that vows are unserious things, not that promises are.
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