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I'm very interested if anyone has any ideas for how this could be done in a way that doesn't feel awfully undemocratic. So far, the dominant position seems to be that the only mechanism would be if Joe willingly stepped back, said he'd refuse the nomination, and supported someone else. Josh Blackman suggests that maybe a deal could be made to give him some things he'd want in return. "Look Joe, we'll hook you up with two more SCOTUS nominees and _____. You have the ability to take an easy out by just saying that you've had a very recent health issue. No one will view you too negatively, and the history books will mostly forget about this."
At the same time, looking in from the outside, it will be hard to distinguish between positive, log-rolling like trades here (which I wouldn't view as too undemocratic) and negative, coercive ones ("Joe, if you don't step back, we're going to X,Y,Z to hurt you in whatever ways"). The latter feels more undemocratic to me, but again, it will be hard to distinguish from the outside.
All that said, has anyone seen any other credible ideas for how the DNC could pull off a switch without Joe's explicit agreement and without it seeming too terribly undemocratic?
A critical mass of Democratic operatives saying out loud they want Biden to step aside does functionally make Biden step aside, even if he does not want to. It's partly why a lot of people end up resigning from their jobs, even if they don't actually need to. As I like to say, numbers matter. No threats or coercion need take place. Only enough donors, campaign staff, polled regular people, media saying stuff loud and often. And/or a few very high-up people. Or even some type of "strike". If this doesn't happen, it's because enough people are, by revealed preference, actually still OK with Biden being the candidate.
In other words, a process can be "democratic", here meaning reflecting the will of the people, without explicit votes needing to be cast. The key here is that "people" is not the general public. It's the average Democratic partisan. Most of the people in charge are still people with opinions, and though they diverge from everyday voters, they don't diverge that much.
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I don't understand the "undemocratic" argument. The general election is meant to be decided democratically - political parties can decide who their candidates will be any way they like, including in smoke-filled back rooms. Nowadays they generally don't do that (at least not overtly) because it pisses off their base, but political parties exist to select winners by the most effective (legal) means possible.
This seems to be the same fundamental misunderstanding of party politics that I saw in 2016 when the Bernie Sanders supporters were enraged that the DNC "picked" Hillary instead of Sanders, and made similar complaints - "This isn't fair, it's undemocratic, it's crooked!" Uh, no, the political party picked the candidate who has been a party insider and supported other party candidates and raised money for the party for years, over the outsider who wants to crash the party. That is how political parties work!
Here is where once again I make my pitch for reading early American history. You all know that it's relatively recently that conventions became essentially coronations for a pre-selected winner, but in the 19th century party politics were even rougher and more arbitrary. Abraham Lincoln's VP got switched on him for his reelection campaign and he really didn't have much to say about it. Several presidents either were not selected by their parties for reelection, or chose not to put themselves forward because they knew they would not be selected. Lots of negotiations were very much smoke-filled room sort of deals, and no one cared much about which candidate the public would prefer, except in the general election. It was interesting contrasting, say, Thomas Jefferson's view of party politics (he claimed to hate political parties while being extremely partisan) with Martin Van Buren's (a pure and unabashed party creature who thought party politics were fundamentally good politics).
Or even at least one president who was strong-armed into it by other people in his party! Garfield. Also relevant that for a long time, it was seen as "unseemly" for a candidate to do the actual vote-asking themselves. Many candidates would sit at home and chat with visitors, and surrogates would canvass the country and make speeches and raise funds on their behalf!
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I'll admit that, coming from the outside, the American primary system has always seemed absurd to me. Maybe this is a result of being Australian instead, but I am much more accustomed to the approach where the party selects its own leader, and the public don't get a say. We get to vote later on. But of course the party get to choose their own leaders. Why wouldn't they?
It's become tradition in America that the way the parties do that is with primaries, but there's no in-principle reason why they couldn't do it any other way, and frankly I suspect it would be better for America if they did. If the party establishments or members of congress had gotten to pick their presidential candidates (approximating the way it works in Australia), Bernie Sanders would never have been a concern, Donald Trump would never have become a political figure at all, and America would have been spared long, divisive primary seasons. As it is, they have a system that rewards extremist candidates playing towards the base, rather than one that rewards trying to appeal to a genuine majority, and that seems like a poorly-functioning electoral system to me.
On the positive, at least, it means the American elections provide some very high quality popcorn.
Well, party leaders often can get pulled into their own insular "bubble". The leader of a party is sometimes chosen despite being a poor candidate simply because of their internal connections. Corruption can happen. Why wouldn't the rank-and-file want more control over their candidate, not less? Why would voters trust someone else, much less a party elite/insider, more than themselves?
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Parties can choose whoever and whatever they like, for whatever position they want. But democracy is sacred enough in America that there's always pressure for parties to select their candidates through a democratic process with an open vote, and sometimes parties cave in, probably because they think it will get them votes in the long run. No one wants to alienate that weird fringe who might wind up voting for the mainstream candidate, so why not give their fringe candidate a chance to compete in the primary? Of course that only works if your mainstream candidate is viable, or if you're good at rigging the process.
Yes, there are a number of reasons why Americans have primaries - it's just become an expectation at this point, it lets you judge popularity with the base because America is a system where turnout matters, and so on. It's more that in the aggregate I think it creates a weaker system than the alternative.
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Well except for many elections now the process by which the party chooses their candidates has been largely democratic. An end run around that process is therefore undemocratic.
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We've come a long way since the 19th century when it comes to rules for selecting major party candidates. And for good reason. Back in the day, a single party machine could control a city. Since the general election was a farce, the primary was the "real election". But the primary was fixed by party insiders with little to no oversight.
Fortunately, many states now require free and fair elections to select party candidates. Replacing Biden with someone who no one voted for is a terrible perversion of this process.
The days of elections being decided in smoke-filled rooms are in the past. May they ever remain so.
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The Democrats mostly did away with party leadership selecting candidates after 1968. At this point the DNC has even defanged superdelegates, they're not allowed to vote on the first ballot. So the leaders only get outsized voting only if the nomination is still contested even at the convention.
They've also painted themselves as the defenders of democracy, that Trump is a would-be dictator who will end democracy in America. Yet it's Trump that won the primaries fair and square, and if the Democrats replace Biden it's them that's ignoring the will of the voters.
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Because America shouldn’t be like Iran, where you are free to vote for any of the six candidates hand-picked by the Guardian Council.
You can vote for literally anyone you want to. At least, anyone who meets the legal requirements to be eligible for office. The constitution does not formally acknowledge the existence of political parties at all, they're not part of the official legal process. All the political parties do is provide a Schelling point so that all the people with similar ideas can coordinate votes instead of wasting them splitting among a bunch of candidates in a first-past-the-post election.
Now, informally this is an incredibly powerful tool that has become a de-facto necessary component of the election. But the political party is legally allowed to do whatever it wants, and if the voters don't like that they can try to figure out a different way to coordinate on a different Schelling point to vote for.
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That's not equivalent, though. Iran has a central authority deciding who is allowed to run for office. A political party gets to decide who they want to represent them in the election. You don't have any democratic right to tell a political party (even your political party) how they will choose their representative. You can agree with their process, or you can choose not to support the party.
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I disagree here. Both parties bill themselves on the plebs being empowered to select the nominees. Nothing wrong with cigar smoking back room deals per se. But not when you market yourself on the fact that you use democratic process to select the candidate.
Also states have rules about how primaries are conducted. It's not like political parties can just do whatever they want.
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I agree with most everything that you say. However, I think that the Democratic Party, itself, bills itself as having a democratic process for selecting its candidates. They may be misguided in wanting to have this feature in their process, and they may ultimately turn back from it. I think that there would be nothing objectively wrong with them making such a choice. But if the question is whether they are able to proceed in running the party in a way that is not terribly undemocratic, while also managing to change horses midstream, I'm still interested in whether there are options.
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It's not very credible, but it's not impossible: They could cause his death or complete disablement. He's probably on a bunch of drugs, a slight change in dosage and Biden goes from an incoherent old man to one in a coma or dead.
We don't need any such sinister scenarios. Honestly, if the DNC really, really wanted Biden to step down, they could probably lean on his family and friends enough to talk him into it. Does he, personally, really, really want to spend the last few years of his life in the White House? I think he's only doing it because he genuinely believes the country "needs" him and if he could be persuaded that he'll be a hero and not be handing over the country to Trump, he could be convinced to let someone else step in.
I don't think it will happen because as bad as Biden is looking right now, openly admitting "Yeah, our guy we've been talking up for months is in such decline that we're replacing him months before the election" would look even worse. I doubt Kamala Harris or Gavin Newsom does better against Trump.
My understanding is that Biden is, personally, an incredibly stubborn person and prickly about his ability or lack thereof. that's not unusual for a politician, but I don't know if anyone could do this.
The issue is not that him being removed from the candidacy looks bad. It's better to admit a mistake and fix it than to soldier on. The issue is that it raises the question - who the fuck is running the country today while Biden is apparently unable to carry a conversation?
The President mostly has advocacy powers, nomination powers, and a ton of power in a crisis. Functionally, Cabinet members run the government. This has almost always been true. And that part of the system does have checks to it, for example all nominees must be Senate-confirmed. The president doesn't even need to sign bills into law! They become law automatically without a veto. In other words, virtually all government functions can and do run just fine without a President by design.
Again, this is not new, and is on purpose. Even if the President were a potato, and no one invoked the 25th, the country would run just fine unless a major military conflict were to pop up, and even then presumably the Secretary of Defense and the Secretary of State could put their heads together and figure something out together.
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There's a theory that it's Obama. Who is living in DC (which I think is highly unusual for a former President), and who has connections to a lot of the members of the Biden administration.
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My guess: To the extent that the United States Government needs anyone running it, it is being run by whoever is in the room with Biden at any given moment. Biden himself acts not so much as decision maker, but as a magical talisman, granting whoever is nearest to him authority over government decisions.
Like a conch... pass me the Biden so that I may speak.
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Harris is a long shot against Trump but I think Newsom, without the need to appeal to primary voters, could take up the mantle of "generic Democrat". Trump's biggest play against him might be the LA train robberies and general law-n-order in California, but even given that he could get all the "we want a competent adult in office" types and get the base by default.
Does he get the base by default? Are the black and/or female parts of the Democrat coalition going to accept Harris being looked over?
She got looked over by primary voters in 2020. It's reasonable to hope that the people who stan for her (are there actually any?) will come into the fold. And if they don't and the only plausible option for replacing Biden is Harris, then Democrats are cooked anyway, so better to jump into the unknown than face very likely defeat.
Wasn't the whole purpose of making her VP to appeal to black voters? The Democrats appear to at least believe she's valuable for that reason, and I'm not sure they want to risk that.
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The #KHive hashtag is still gettin recent results, at least.
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For me, Newsom gives off an "I am a sociopath" vibe. I mean this literally, and am not implying that the vibe is reliable evidence of him being a sociopath, rather a possible hindrance to him being elected president. Do any of you also get this vibe from him?
Why do you imply that sociopathy is a hindrance to electability?
I didn't mean to. I think giving off the vibe of being a sociopath is the hindrance because voters want someone who they think cares about them.
Well, he did get elected in California, so it can't be too big a hindrance.
Fwiw I don't like him myself and didn't vote for him.
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I've had a dislike of Newsom long before it was cool, and I don't see it. He's more just a smarmy politician. Voters won't love it, but it's just a generic politician vibe, which would be a win for Democrats.
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