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practical_romantic  1yr ago (text post)   3278 thread views

Small-Scale Question Sunday for October 23, 2022

Do you have a dumb question that you're kind of embarrassed to ask in the main thread? Is there something you're just not sure about?

This is your opportunity to ask questions. No question too simple or too silly.

Culture war topics are accepted, and proposals for a better intro post are appreciated.

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Do we have any Catholic mottizens? I was raised Catholic for a time, but eventually my parents left for ye olde non-denominational Protestant church. For some reason though, I've found myself attracted to the idea of returning recently. I find a few things attractive about it:

  • I have found that I kind of prefer "high church" to "low church". Not that either is better than the other, but a more formal service kind of feels like a better fit for me personally.

  • I really appreciate the tradition and longevity behind the institution, and it appeals to me to be a part of that.

  • I like the unity of the Catholic church. Not that they don't have things that divide them, but they seem to be a lot more unified than the other Christian groups are. Related to this...

  • I used to think that all the rigid formalities were stupid and arbitrary, and I hated having to just follow along. But in hindsight, I think maybe I just didn't have the perspective at 13 to appreciate the importance of them (shocker, I know). Something that Scott wrote in one of his pieces (I think it was the reactionary FAQ) has stuck out to me, where he says that if everyone jumps on one foot during the solstice that is objectively pretty stupid. But if everyone does it, that is how communities are built, because we're now fellow solstice jumpers. I feel like some (maybe even all) of the rules and formality I chafed at as a teenager are things of that nature, and I do appreciate anything that builds community in these divided times.

So I guess my question is, am I just being insane here? Or maybe waxing nostalgic for my childhood in a weird religious way? I've been thinking maybe I should investigate rejoining the Catholic church (which as I understand it would entail going to some adult classes and getting confirmed, as well as getting my marriage recognized by the church), but I also can't shake the feeling that I'm just being silly. I do want to find a church home to call my own, but I'm not sure whether or not this is the right path for me.

I am Catholic and it is possible to be rationally convinced of the existence of God, the Gospel accounts, and the Catholic Church's claims. Many atheist philosophers of religion admit that it is possible to have a rational belief in God (even though they themselves do not.) Capturing Christianity is a Youtube channel from a non-Catholic Christian who has spent the last few years interviewing experts (theist and atheist) about topics of philosophy, history, biology, and apologetics. I would recommend watching any videos that stand out to you and starting from there. I like the interview format because it's less one sided, but you can then go on to read any books, articles, etc the experts have published to get more in depth on a topic.

Edward Feser and Peter Kereft have a good amount of books between them that provide a baseline understanding of the philosophy of religion. Feser's Aquinas is a good place to start, but both of them have a good selection of books on a large number of interesting topics.

Bishop Barron is also a good Catholic Apologist. He has his own channel, but I like this interview as a good summary/introduction to him.

It's normal to feel a little silly when you are doing something new or picking something up from your childhood and trying to approach it like an adult. My recommendation would be to call your nearby parish and tell them that you are considering returning to the Church but would first like to talk with a priest. Talk with the priest about what your experience is with the Church, what you're hoping to get out of returning, etc.

I will say that when I returned to the Church I discovered that a lot of what I thought was Catholicism was actually just my own parents' opinions. Likewise on the internet there are a lot of people willing to offer their personal theological speculation as if it was 100% Catholic dogma.

Thank you very much for the reading and listening recommendations! I am very interested in reading apologetics about Catholicism specifically (since I already am a believer), so I appreciate the nod towards Bishop Barron. He seems like he has some illuminating things to say, and I will definitely spend some more time perusing his content.

I will say that Capturing Christianity has a lot of resources on the Catholic/Protestant debate as well. I don't want you to feel like you're getting only one side of the story, below are some of the more recent videos:

The Case Against the Papacy

The Case For the Papacy

How Catholicism Can Be PROVEN FALSE

No, Catholicism Hasn't Been "Proven False"

Raised catholic here.

The molestation scandal was such an unprecedented breach of trust that went high up into the leadership of the church. To recover from that evil requires unprecedented repentance. And that has not happened.

I will never support the Catholic Church in its current form because of that. It is institutionally corrupt. Perhaps it always has been.

And perhaps the teaching have nothing to do with the leadership. In that case, I will not listen to sermons from the priests who prop up the evil institution. I'm perfectly able to read the Bible on my own.

I hear you. It is something I need to decide for myself as well - has the church truly repented of what happened, or did they just pay lip service and move on? I agree that, if one decides they didn't truly repent, one can't really follow them. I don't know what I think, but it is something I need to consider amidst everything else.

This page gives a basic starting point for what the Church has done in the US. As someone who has gone through safe environment training, I feel like Catholic institutions are among the safest places to leave your kids now.

Repentance is a difficult thing for a topic like this. Have abusers as individuals repented? Most haven't. Most went on to die in peace or sob in prison. Same with people involved in a cover up - most were abusers themselves. Is there repentance to be found there? I don't think so, but lack of repentance is the least of their crimes.

Has the Church as a whole repented? The Church as a whole feels like the sheep getting eaten by the wolves (and I don't mean how upset the rest of the world gets on the topic.) When members of the Church (priests, religious, laity) hear about abuse, they don't identify with the abuser, they identify with the victim. It's not, "I could have been that rapist," it's "I could have been that child, that vulnerable seminarian, that cloistered nun, that could have been me." So the Church as a whole responded like victims, and implemented protocols to protect themselves and their members from abuse.

As a whole, the US Conference of Bishops has apologized, "As bishops, we have acknowledged our mistakes and our roles in that suffering, and we apologize and take responsibility again for too often failing victims and the Catholic people in the past. From the depths of our hearts, we bishops express great sorrow and profound regret for what the Catholic people have endured." Individuals who have had specific failings have apologized (though not all, and it's not surprising to me that terrible human beings who rape children don't apologize.)

But apologies aren't repentance. What would repentance look like here? To a Catholic, repentance is an unexpected and undeserved (for the repenter, the victim deserves justice) act of grace that allows someone to feel true remorse for a personal fault they have committed. What do people mean when they ask for repentance from a group of 1.3 billion people? That is a question a lot of people have wrestled with and I don't think anyone has come up with any satisfactory answers.

I'm perfectly able to read the Bible on my own.

Woah there Martin Luther.

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Thank you for all of this. The Bible recommendation in particular is something I appreciate, as I do love a nice annotated edition of dense books (like the Bible is). I am fairly familiar with the Bible due to being raised in a Christian household, going to church every week, etc - but I will definitely take the time to read it with a fresh new perspective.

As far as my own current situation goes, I have had a long and winding journey to get to where I am, but today I am a believer in Christ, and do my best to follow his example. I have had the need for a "church home" on my mind the last few years, though, as right now I go to church almost never, and I think I need to do better in that respect. So my question is really one of "I'm a Christian and I'm pondering if the Catholic church is the right home for me", not so much "I'm an atheist and pondering if Christianity is right for me". Which at least simplifies things somewhat. :)

Lastly, thank you for the kind words. I appreciate them very much, as I certainly never felt like I have been a poster who stands out in the crowd. I never resented that, because we just have some truly great writers here and the bar is quite high. But I am gratified to know that I have made a positive impression during my time here.

Something I’ve been mulling over, as a longtime Catholic apologist who doesn’t practice, which may be relevant ITT, is the nature of religious worship in a church, and why so many love high church ritualism and symbolism instinctually. There’s an element of dramatic imagination in worship. I think when you sit in a church and you say “I’m in a church”, and when you hear the psalm and you say “I’m hearing the psalm”, and when you see the crucifix and say “this is art of the crucifix”, you are doing it wrong. Instead, the church is the spatial representation of Heaven, and when you hear the psalm you should be transcended into the voice of the narrator with all your senses, and you should behold the crucifix as if it is the only true crucifix. You have to engage dramatically and allow the sensations to become the new reality of your mind, the new earth even, to get the most out of worship. In the Bible we read about the “spirit” of the word versus the “flesh”, and the spirit is the deepest meaning with the flesh being the surface referent to the meaning. And what we’re after is the deeper spiritual transfiguration that refreshes the soul.

So (this isn’t Catholic), but if you’re hearing this hymn, with the lyrics:

Behold, I fall before thy face; My only refuge is thy grace; No outward form can make me clean; The leprosy lies deep within.

All attention should be on identification with the words as they mean deeply, ie the narrative. You imagine and feel deeply that you are prostate in front of the greatest Being imaginable. You feel the Being’s “grace”, or mercy and compassion, and you can simply visualize a King if that helps. You truly identify with the feeling of sickness and associate that with your sin.

Religious worship can (and I think should) be seen as a dramatic transformation because this is the way that it affects us most deeply and causes interior changes of the heart.

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I've been an atheist since I was like 8 years old but recently (27 y/o) I've having a "lack-of-faith" crisis: I'm not confident enough in my ability to discern reality in itself. Lately I'm having very strong numinous feelings: I've always been extremely rational - physicist, programmer, classical musician all that - but I've often dabbled in the occult, but more like a quirky curiosity that in the belief in the supernatural.

Today for the first time I felt the need to pray: to ask God for help, to soothe my desperation, to give me strength and I did something similar to what you describe: stop concentrating on the act of praying but immerse myself in the words coming out of my mouth. Then just now (it's 2:17am here) I read your comment and listen to that hymn and cried, as I've never cried before, seemingly relieved of a part of my pain. Placebo? Delusion? God? I don't really know, I just know it was a sensation as wonderful as it was terrible.

I was raised as a watered down Catholic and maybe I should reevaluate the faith with more depth.

Sorry for the ranting, it has been a long horrible day.

Evangelical not-weird Pentecostal here. My sister, raised in the same church I was, wanted what you want, and ended up in an American Anglican church. She immediately loved it.

If you try it, make sure you find a church on the side of the gay schism you believe God is on (gay is A-OK vs. gay is sin).

Canadian Anglican is going to largely be gay is A-OK, USA Anglican is going to be overwhelmingly gay is sin, USA Episcopal (rectifying respect to Canterbury but not the crown) is going to be usually gay is A-OK.

US Anglicans do not see the King as the head of their church in particular, but of the specific Church of England and other Anglican countries where he is king.

I am Catholic, although not the best one, but I can comment and try to answer some of your questions.

I really appreciate the tradition and longevity behind the institution, and it appeals to me to be a part of that.

This was for me one of the biggest reasons to become Catholic. It was not just a church but the church, that has been around in different form for 2000ish years and comes with tons of work from expert theologians who have stood the test of time. I think it's important to know that you're not alone, it's not all on you, when you're unsure or have doubts or just want to learn something new this is a community to turn to that has seen it all before. Aquinas alone has an excessive number of works, enough to satisfy most people's curiosity. It extends beyond scholarship though, the community exists everywhere now. Nearly every city in Europe has centuries-old churches, we have christian-based holidays in most Western countries, the influence of the church is pervasive and deeply ingrained in western culture, and most of that is Catholic or based on it. I think Catholicism is still flat-out the largest religious group in the world (depending on how you dice things).

I've been thinking maybe I should investigate rejoining the Catholic church (which as I understand it would entail going to some adult classes and getting confirmed, as well as getting my marriage recognized by the church)

If you have not been confirmed you will have to go through the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults (RCIA). This is how I joined the church, and I helped with later classes, so if you have any particular questions about it you can DM me.

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Thank you for the input! If I have questions about RCIA I'll be sure to hit you up.

Hello.

The first step is start going to Catholic services, praying the rosary, etc. See if practicing Catholicism is something you want to do before starting the process. I would also recommend going to a men's group(or women's bible study if female) put on by the Catholic church in an official capacity(church websites will probably have information about this) for more locally-specific advice; most of these do not require official membership in the Catholic church to attend.

You will probably have to locate the church you were baptized into and have the church you're planning on going to classes in contact them. Be prepared for a non-trivial amount of paperwork for this step and for getting your marriage recognized in the Catholic church(which they will refer to as regularizing). It behooves you to pick rather carefully the church you take classes, get your marriage regularized through, etc, as you will be stuck with them for a while(probably about a year) during the process. In general, more conservative parishes(a local church) will be more like what you're looking for, but they will also have more expectations of following the rules quite strictly which could slow down getting your marriage regularized, especially if either of you has a previous marriage, even a common law one.

You will need to join a parish and probably plan on going to that physical location more than once per week for a year or so, so keep that in mind. You also will probably not get a good idea of what a parish is like without physically visiting. Your local diocese's(in the US this is divided up by county; the rest of the world is more complicated) website should have a tool to find parishes near you, as well as to search by service times, language options, etc. It is of course a good idea to speak with a cleric regarding your specific situation as well; you might be able to skip a step or two.

Thank you for the input, you've really helped to give me a better idea of what to expect. I also think you have a good idea to do things like going to Mass, praying the rosary, and things of that nature. Something that sticks with me is something I recall reading in the Bible when I was younger, about being able to discern things by the fruits they bear in your life. I did go to Mass a couple of weeks ago, and have been thinking I will go in the future to see if I still feel that the Catholic church may be for me.

One thing I am wondering, from the reading I've done it seems like the Catholic church is pretty insistent that you need to go to Mass every week (makes sense I suppose). My wife, at this time, has no intention of joining the Catholic church and has asked if I'd be willing to alternate, sometimes going to Mass and sometimes to a Protestant service. I am amenable to that, but do you know if that would be a problem with whatever parish I (hypothetically) chose to join?

This would be an issue, yes. The expectation would be that you go to an early morning mass and then later go to whatever church your wife attends mid-morning.

Nobody is going to hassle you for not going to mass but if you're serious about it then the rule is that you have to attend mass every Sunday and holy day of obligation unless you have a good reason for missing (usually if you're sick or in a remote location). If you skip a week you would need to go to confession before taking communion. A protestant service can't be used as a substitute for mass.

You could go to mass on Saturday evening and then go with your wife on Sunday to a protestant service.

This is all self enforced, nobody takes attendance so it comes down to how seriously you want to take things.

If he’s in RCIA then attendance might be a requirement/condition of completing the process.

Well, there was Ame_Damnee, until she deleted her account a few months back. I miss having her around.

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